Bethpage vs. Pinehurst

[Phil_the_Author]

Kyle,

As I said before what you couldn't read, now add to it the direction that a photograph shows! 

The shot you cite is directly behind the 17th green of the Red looking straight back down the fairway. The #2 tee of the Black is 90% to the left from the perspective of the view in the photo. The 2nd fairway of the Green is at about a 60% angle to the right and through a whole mess (Georgian for a lot more than two) of trees...

You asked, "Why could they remove trees and buffer tees on the Black Course?" The removal of trees done on the Black were out of the site of the general populace until it was completed. The majority of the properties adjacent to the course are owned by New York State. For example, the new 9th tee was placed on land TRADED, not bought, with some property elsewhere on the bethpage property. It was traded to the State University of Farmingdale whose property is owned by N.Y. State and whose land the new 9th tee was on. By the way, this new tee was not the USGA's idea and it won't be used during the Open.

Other areas that border the Black is the old Nassau County Police Firing Range, drainage sumps and the Red Course...

Last year approximately 100+ trees were taken down on the Black and the Park got major grief and protesting because of it... The course is now being carefully watched by environmental groups. They are the reason that the 6th course was never built...

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

Thanks for the reply on the tree removal. I had not idea about the trade, also glad to hear about the new tee not being used. I still don't like the bunker, but at least it shouldn't be in play.

By the way:


I count 2-3 tree that would need to be removed. Not sure what the term for that is in Georgia... ;-)

[Phil_the_Author]

Kyle,

It's been far too long since I looked at the trees in that area. It appears that Craig Currier has been playing with his chain saw again as there used to be more trees there. By the way, and you can check with Mike Young on this, those would be a crap load of trees in Georgia! 

In all seriousness I had forgotten about the tee extension in the back that both took out trees and widened the tee box left as well.

[Mike Golden]

Kyle,  while there could be room on this one particular hole to extend the golf course slightly, take a look at the new angle and tell me you wouldn't be putting the safety of golfers on both the 17th and 4th greens in jeopardy by having that tee there.  I truly don't see what that would do to improve the golf course, in order to make the course substantially longer there would have to be far more land available than exists.  As a public facility, as you know, there are golfers of all sizes, shapes, skills, and intelligence and having a tee box in that location would encourage some very dangerous possibilities.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike/Phil,

It wouldn't improve the golf hole, at all. However it is possible and with the prediliction for lengthening courses - should that ethic ever happen on the Green - I would imagine it could be considered. Plus, such a tee would only be used for tournaments or light days. When we played 3 weeks ago, there were no back tees set out and the whites were up on a lot of the tee boxes. Which is a VERY good thing, IMO.

And yes Phil, you do need to get back there. I think you'll be pleased with what has been done with the Green Course.

[Sam Maryland]

Tom, Mike, Kyle & Sam,

Tom, you are correct, the Green course doesn't need lengthening. It is a wonderful course as is and has enough challenging holes that can keep the skilled player interested while he takes his son or daughter along with him to play on their first "real" golf course.

Mike, I agree with your assessment of the course.

Kyle, the 2nd most definitely could NOT share the tee with the Black. My favorite writer once wrote that "Logistics are the assassins of ideas..." Consider the following logistics that make that idea impossible:
1- A shared tee would slow up play on TWO courses as they waited for others to tee off...
2- It would require the removal of a good number of trees. Despite the tremendous numbers removed from the Black prior to the 2002 Open (more than 9,000) the park now is under a severely watchful eye where tree removals are concerned.
3- It would require a massive moving and cost to bring in dirt to extend the tee back and to the side. 
4- Even if this were possible, it would also require tee shots played over the heads of those on the 17th green of the Green course.
5- Most important of all... those who typically play the green course are average or fair players. A tee box way back there would never be used by them. Those who want challenges can always play the Black, Red and Blue courses...

The reality is that there is no reason to lengthen any of the holes on the Green, especially in light of it's own forgotten historical significance. What always gets lost when talking about Bethpage in light of the three new courses that tilly designed, is that he also did a redesign of the existing Bethpage Golf Club (1932) which was the original Lenox Hills Golf Club before the State of New York leased it.

Tilly created several new holes and reworked almost every one of the others. With the exception of some bunker rebuilding done on a few holes (12 & 18) 3 or so years ago and the removal of the creek that crossed the 17th fairway in the late 1970's, vestiges of which can still be seen, it remains as Tilly left it.

Sam, it is my understanding that there be a new book coming out, possibly next year, that will detail all 5 of the courses and their entire course evolution history as well as provide significant details of the entire park history as well...

In the meantime there is also a series of articles that can be found in the Long Island Golfer Magazine that began with this past July 2008 issue and will continue through each one until the 2009 U.S. Open.

I concur that the Green course plays plenty tough as it is.  I'm about a 9 handicap and probably above average in terms of how far I hit it and I'll be damned if I can break 80 on the Green course.  Have broken 80 regularly on Red and Blue but never on Green...I find that the Green plays very difficult -- it's an enjoyable course to play.  Oddly, the scores I shoot on Green are similar to what I shoot on Black with 81 being the low.

SM

[Matt_Ward]

In all the discussions that focus on Bethpage -- it amazes me how the front nine of the Blue Course is almost always forgotten.

Extremely challenging side with some wonderful terrain and change of pace holes.

[Sam Maryland]

In all the discussions that focus on Bethpage -- it amazes me how the front nine of the Blue Course is almost always forgotten.

Extremely challenging side with some wonderful terrain and change of pace holes.

I agree.  ignored it for a couple years but recently played it again a couple times and really enjoyed it.  1, 2, 4, 6 and 8 all good holes.  not a fan of 9.  on the back I think 10-16 are all good holes, don't much like 17 or 18. 

10-16 is a really really solid stretch of holes.

SM

[Matt_Ward]

Sam:

Part of the issue for the Blue Course is that people automatically believe the Red is vastly superior to anything else at the complex.

I don't share that sentiment. The land on the Blue is quite appealing and the change of pace holes encountered there is
of a high sort.

Like I said -- the front nine at the Blue can be rated as the 3rd best nine at the complex outside the two nine's that make
up the Black Course.

[Sam Maryland]

Matt,

I admit to being one of those that think the Red is the best course out there, if I had to choose I'd probably even take it over the Black.  Obviously that's strictly a matter of personal preference as both are exceptional.

But having said that, I've played them all enough that at this point I'm abivalent between the Red, Black, Green and Blue -- I really enjoy them all (have yet to play the Yellow).

SM

[Matt_Ward]

Sam:

The difference between #2 and BB is that the latter is strictly an all-muscle
type course. Sort of like Nolan Ryan rearing back and throwing near 100+ heat
at your head for the duration of the time there. The Black does lack a quality finesse
hole of the highest order.

#2 is a bit more challenging around the greens and many poo-poo the course because
they likely have only played it once or twice at best.

In regards to the other layouts at Bethpage -- the Blue is always interesting because
the front nine has few weak spots -- the opening hole is likely the weakest of what
you encounter with that nine.

[paul cowley]

i know what u mean.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

This is the first time I have seen one of my old threads bumped by someone years later - I guess it is a friendly indication that I may have been on here a little too long... 

I still stand by what I said about Bethpage vs. Pinehurst.  The conditioning and quality of architecture across the first 5 courses at each is very competitive and when cost is factored in, it isn't much of a contest in my opinion.  I also do agree with Matt that the front 9 on the Blue is the 3rd best 9 in the complex.  Playing 9 holes twilight on the Blue for $10 is one of the great steals in golf.

Regarding the Green, it has been a while since I played it but I do remember hitting driver / wedge on a number of holes.  I don't think there is much room to lengthen it, but I always enjoyed the variety of holes on the course.  The more I think about it, it doesn't need to be the beast that The Black Course is, it just needs to be the best course the Green can be and its current routing goes a long way to accomplishing that goal.

[Sam Maryland]

Sam:

The difference between #2 and BB is that the latter is strictly an all-muscle
type course. Sort of like Nolan Ryan rearing back and throwing near 100+ heat
at your head for the duration of the time there. The Black does lack a quality finesse
hole of the highest order.

#2 is a bit more challenging around the greens and many poo-poo the course because
they likely have only played it once or twice at best.

In regards to the other layouts at Bethpage -- the Blue is always interesting because
the front nine has few weak spots -- the opening hole is likely the weakest of what
you encounter with that nine.

in my mind the Red is actually a better comp than the Black as compared to #2...

some of the things I love about Red are (in general, not specific to Black or #2):

- you go out, and you come back, no turn.
- you never see/cross a road.
- you never see a house.
- there's not an OB stake on the course (I don't even think the polo/soccer field is staked)  .
- you can rip driver on almost every hole.
- almost all you see wherever you look, is more golf course.
- if it's not hard enough for you, just keep moving back.

it makes me think about a time when there was no other consideration besides building a great golf course --  houses/streets/development, etc... were not a factor.

it does perplex me that they can't get the scorecard corrected for the fact that...

...#1 is really a par 5 

SM