What about Myopia Hunt and Eastward Ho?

[Thomas MacWood]

Noel
I know the club is aware of Park's involvement because that is where I got the information.

This is from a 1921 Bernard Darwin article:

"Mr. Herbert Fowler has just come back from America, where he has been busily laying out courses, and has told me some very interesting things about them. Up till now America has been poor in courses that we should describe as the real seaside thing. Even the National Golf Links on Long Island, just about the best course that I ever saw in my life, is not strictly seaside golf. Mr. Fowler has been laying out two courses on pure sand right on the sea. the one over which he is most modestly enthusiatic is on Cape Cod. It is close to a place that we should call Chatham, but the Americans call Chat-ham. The course is on so narrow a promontory that practically every is right on the water's edge. Mr. Fowler desribes it as a 'glorified Sandwich.' It is, I gather, a beautifully undulating tract of broken ground, and four or five of the holes have ready made turf. The others have to sown, and tons and tons of unwanted fish--Cape Cod is, of course, a famous fishing centre--are being used as manure to prepare the ground."

The fellow who built Eastward Ho! - C. Ashley Hardy - also designed the course at the Chatham Bars Inn, in fact I believe he owned the entire resort.

[Gerry B]

jay:

here is the sequencing of myopia from memory - do not have a scorecard at hand as a reference point


1- 290 yd par 4 - blind tee shot
2- short par 5 under 500 yds you hit into a valley - green is not visible from 100 yds out as there is steep hill approach that situated right after a set of cross bunkers
3-253 yd par 3 with a cross bunker that needs a 200 yd carry off the tee - when the wind is blowing can play almost 300 yds
4- 400 yd par 4 - dog leg left -a bit of a cape hole - green is diabolical - one of the best 4's on the planet
5  - par 4 about 380 yds
6 - short risk reward par 4 - under 300 yds - must carry a creek off the tee or lay up - green is tiny and the approach is a severe uphill shot
7- a 400 yd plus par 4 -uphill then down hill - hole is called myopia
8 - a par 5 prob just under 500 yds - tight driving hole - goes uphill then downhill - green is severely sloped from right to left
9 - par 3 135 yds - america's version of the postage stamp - a beauty
10 -called the alps - prob around 400 yds slightly uphill tee shot green is  protected by a deep bunker called the taft bunker - bunkers on the right are called jonesville
11 -shortish par 4 -fairway is canted
12 - a long par 4 into a valley - tough green -  very difficult par -could be the hardest hole on the course
13  - shortish par 4 - 230 to end of the fiarway - 2nd shot is up to a green on a  knoll - if you don't get there you roll back down the hill - think of the alps at ngla
14 medium length par 4
15-500 yds plus par 5
16 - 180 yd severely  downhill par 3 - green is severe as well
17 medium length par 4 with severley canted fairway - can be an awkward tee shot
18 400 yd par 4 - green is protected by a multiple bunkers

i would best describe it as quirky and one feels a sense of solitude when playing there. Short by today's standards but tight in spots - you will use every type of shot in your repertoire. errant tee shots can cause big numbers as there is a lot of fescue and the rough can be severe at times

the bunkering which is superb are definitely hazards
when the greens are running fast - they can also cause major problems as they have some severe slopes and breaks.
if the wind is blowing it can be a major test.

yes, there are many courses that are better but i am struggling to find 10 that i would rather play day in and out

in fact will be there this sunday - fall is the best time to play there - it is really pretty this time of the year

[TEPaul]

"Yes, I can answer the question about the original nine/Long Nine, unfortunately..."

Mr. MacWood:

Unfortunately, WHAT? Unfortunately you're going to try to use that bullshit "PLEDGE" EXCUSE AGAIN that you don't want to help me so you refuse to try to answer EVEN that question?!?  

Look, Mr. MacWood, the only reason you keep using that pathetic, weak, bullshit "PLEDGE" excuse on here is because you just don't have any idea about the original nine of Myopia, where it was and who did it. The reason is you've never seen anything from the club itself except what I've given you on here, and just look at you, you totally ignore it post after post after post by trying to tell people that the entire club and their records back then have to be wrong and everyone in those meetings back then must have been lying to one another. You do this to perpetuate your speculations and exaggerations of the histories of the architecture and architects of these important clubs. It was no different with you with Merion. You do all this to perpetuate yourself as what you've referred to on here about yourself as an "expert researcher/writer".

What a cruel joke that is. You're nothing but a fucking fraud, Tom MacWood---you know I know it and now you know I know it too, and you probably know, at this point, that everyone else on here and at these clubs who are aware of this website knows it too but the thought of admitting your compeletly wrong about these courses, their architecture and architects is apparently such anathema to you, you just can't stop carrying on this way. You got caught in your speculations and exaggerations on some of these famous courses and their "legend" designers on here long ago but you just can't admit it, can you? What kind of weakness is that anyway?

Once and for all---shitcan this preposterous "PLEDGE" of yours which is a total excuse for not knowing a thing about what I'm asking you to explain and/or support.

You have no idea where all the holes of that original 1894 routing were---you have no idea where Dr. Hopkins property was back then and you have no understanding of who laid out that course in the winter/spring of 1894.

The supreme irony is even Weeks mentioned neither he nor the club really knows where exactly all those holes were or what they were. So what makes you think you know if they don't, particularly since you've never even been there, you don't know the property, you don't know the course----essentially you don't know anything much about it? But if for some really odd reason you think you do and you continue to use this ridiculous excuse of yours----this bullshit "Pledge" not to tell anyone, then who in the world could think anything other than you must be a real fraud who's sole purpose on here is to try to promote himself as a researcher? I think this entire website, including Ran Morrissett, should call you out on this, or else throw you out. Produce what you say you have on Campbell and Myopia or just give up this charade.

If not, just remember, keep this up and I'll always be here to defend these clubs, courses and their architects. They deserve at least that from this kind of crap.

[Thomas MacWood]

"Yes, I can answer the question about the original nine/Long Nine, unfortunately..."

Mr. MacWood:

Unfortunately, WHAT? Unfortunately you're going to try to use that bullshit "PLEDGE" EXCUSE AGAIN that you don't want to help me so you refuse to try to answer EVEN that question?!?  

Look, Mr. MacWood, the only reason you keep using that pathetic, weak, bullshit "PLEDGE" excuse on here is because you just don't have any idea about the original nine of Myopia, where it was and who did it. The reason is you've never seen anything from the club itself except what I've given you on here, and just look at you, you totally ignore it post after post after post by trying to tell people that the entire club and their records back then have to be wrong and everyone in those meetings back then must have been lying to one another. You do this to perpetuate your speculations and exaggerations of the histories of the architecture and architects of these important clubs. It was no different with you with Merion. You do all this to perpetuate yourself as what you've referred to on here about yourself as an "expert researcher/writer".

What a cruel joke that is. You're nothing but a fucking fraud, Tom MacWood---you know I know it and now you know I know it too, and you probably know, at this point, that everyone else on here and at these clubs who are aware of this website knows it too but the thought of admitting your compeletly wrong about these courses, their architecture and architects is apparently such anathema to you, you just can't stop carrying on this way. You got caught in your speculations and exaggerations on some of these famous courses and their "legend" designers on here long ago but you just can't admit it, can you? What kind of weakness is that anyway?

Once and for all---shitcan this preposterous "PLEDGE" of yours which is a total excuse for not knowing a thing about what I'm asking you to explain and/or support.

You have no idea where all the holes of that original 1894 routing were---you have no idea where Dr. Hopkins property was back then and you have no understanding of who laid out that course in the winter/spring of 1894.

The supreme irony is even Weeks mentioned neither he nor the club really knows where exactly all those holes were or what they were. So what makes you think you know if they don't, particularly since you've never even been there, you don't know the property, you don't know the course----essentially you don't know anything much about it? But if for some really odd reason you think you do and you continue to use this ridiculous excuse of yours----this bullshit "Pledge" not to tell anyone, then who in the world could think anything other than you must be a real fraud who's sole purpose on here is to try to promote himself as a researcher? I think this entire website, including Ran Morrissett, should call you out on this, or else throw you out. Produce what you say you have on Campbell and Myopia or just give up this charade.

If not, just remember, keep this up and I'll always be here to defend these clubs, courses and their architects. They deserve at least that from this kind of crap.

TE
No reason to fly off the handle. You should be happy, thanks to Mike, and the manifests, you now know when Campbell came over. No more mystery surrounding that.

You stick with the story told by Weeks, and I'll stick with what I know.

[TEPaul]

"TE
No reason to fly off the handle. You should be happy, thanks to Mike, and the manifests, you now know when Campbell came over. No more mystery surrounding that."


Mr. MacWood:

Uh huh, right, Mike Cirba apparently found a ship manifest on 3/31/94 for a Willie Campbell emigrating for the first time from Scotland to America. What do you think about that? Do you think that was the Willie Campbell we are talking about here or are you going to fudge it and ignore it and avoid that subject too?

Just answer a simple question, for once, for the sake of discussion and most certainly for the sake of a very important "timeline" discussion about Myopia----DO you think that ship passenger manifest record of a Willie Campbell coming into America on 3/31/94 was the same Willie Campbell we're all talking about or don't you? And do you think, do you support, at this time, that THAT was the FIRST time he came to America?

For once, just answer the questions, Mr. MacWood.

[TEPaul]

As per usual it looks like Mr. MacWood is just going to completely ignore and fail to acknowledge the questions put to him in the post above. Why is that as they are just basic timeline questions re: Willie Campbell's first arrival in America? But they may be important to his contention that Campbell laid out the original nine holes of Myopia contrary to the club's history that the original nine was laid out by three Myopia members (Appleton, Merrill and Gardner). Is Mr. MacWood still using this ridiculous "PLEDGE" of his as an excuse to cover up the fact he really doesn't know and can't answer those questions but doesn't want anyone on here to know that? I would have to say, yes, definitely that is the case.


One another note----eg Willie Campbell being the professional at Myopia in the mid 1890s Mr. MacWood says this:


"Campbell was the most experienced AND most active golf architect in New England in 1896. He was also the most respected professional in America in 1896, and one of the most respected in the world (Willie Dunn, Joe Lloyd and WF Davis were some of the others). The fact that Weeks was not aware Campbell was the pro at Myopia says a lot IMO. Do you know how easy it is to confirm that fact?"


He asks if I know how easy it is to confirm the fact that Willie Campbell was the pro at Myopia. I've said I do not know how easy it is and apparently Myopia doesn't either. And I've said I certainly would like to know if that is a fact and certainly Myopia would love to know that for various reasons.

I don't want to clog up this thread with this stuff, particulary after speaking with Jay Flemma last night and so I'll start another thread entitled "The professionals of Myopia." In that thread I will list ALL the professionals Myopia believes they had from 1894 until today because they are all listed, described and thanked for their work and dedication to Myopia in Weeks's 1975 history book.

I hope Mr. MacWood will contribute to that thread and explain to us or Myopia privately or at least to SOMEBODY how easy it is to confirm that Willie Campbell was the professional at Myopia because I do not believe Myopia's fairly detailed records show that to be a fact.

But if it was a fact they would love to know for the reasons you will see on the other thread.

Will Mr. MacWood continue to stonewall? I hope not but he probably will and the reason is likely that he really doesn't have much of anything on this issue and he just doesn't want to admit that on here-----eg hence this ridiculous stonewalling "PLEDGE" of his.   

For a quality architectural and golf history website and discussion group like this one that's pretty sad, in my opinion.

[Thomas MacWood]

I found some interesting info on Charles Ashley Hardy, the fellow who built EH! for Fowler. Evidently he split time between Boston and Chatham. In Boston he listed his profession as an engineer (not an architect), in the field mining. I wonder if he was associated with Quincy Shaw, who made a fortune in mining. While in Chatham he listed his occupation as agriculture or farmer. Based on his backfround it would seem he was well qualified for the job, especially since he had already delved into golf architecture at the Chatham Bars course.

I also confirmed he did travel to the UK & France in 1922. The reason for his trip was given as 'study'. That would seem to confirm the story he went over to be tutored by Fowler. He was 47 at the time.

[TEPaul]

"I wonder if he was associated with Quincy Shaw, who made a fortune in mining. While in Chatham he listed his occupation as agriculture or farmer. Based on his backfround it would seem he was well qualified for the job, especially since he had already delved into golf architecture at the Chatham Bars course."


It looks to me like Charles Ashley Hardy was connected to Richard Sears perhaps by some family connection and thereby the land for the famous Chatham Bars Inn came Hardy's way in the early teens. This is probably the same noted Richard Sears of Myopia Hunt Club of which of course Quincy Shaw was a longtime important member.

This is just another example of how closely connected so many of these families in and around Boston and the Cape really were back in that day. With many of those early Boston and Cape golf clubs basically most all those people knew each other well. It is pretty amazing how closely connected the memberships of Myopia and TCC were back in the old days.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
That is not the Richard Sears of Myopia. That is a good point about the connection between the TCC and Myopia. Most of the top golfers at TCC, including Leeds and Quincy Shaw, left the TCC for Myopia in 1896. I believe Willie Campbell came with them. Do you know the reason for the mass exodus?

By the way congratualtions on confirming the date of Campbell's migration to the States and his professional connection to Myopia.  Your next step is to confirm 1) Campbell laid out Myopia in the spring of 1894 and 2) precisely when Leeds began his tinkering with Myopia. Unfortunately you will not find this information in Weeks' book. I'll give you hint in the form of questions. When did play begin on the original nine at Myopia? It may also be helpful to look at the reformation and formation of the courses at Brookline and Essex also in the spring of 1894. When was the full 18 open for play?

By the end of this process you may look like hero to the folks at Myopia.

[TEPaul]

"By the way congratualtions on confirming the date of Campbell's migration to the States and his professional connection to Myopia.  Your next step is to confirm 1) Campbell laid out Myopia in the spring of 1894 and 2) precisely when Leeds began his tinkering with Myopia. Unfortunately you will not find this information in Weeks' book. I'll give you hint in the form of questions. When did play begin on the original nine at Myopia?"


Mr. MacWood:

I have put on this website a number of times when play began on the original nine of Myopia in 1894. That actually helped to confirm when the course was initially laid out and Campbell was not in this country at that time much less working for Myopia. Apparently you missed that too as you seem to miss a lot of information on these threads.

You contended that Campbell laid out the original Myopia nine in 1894 and not Appleton, Merrill and Gardner, apparently not even understanding that Campbell likely had nothing to do with Myopia for another two years.

So, I hardly think either I or Myopia need any suggestions from you on how to go about creating timelines and analyzing these things with the history of their architecture! 

[Thomas MacWood]

According to Myopia's 1894 club records and Myopia's history book, Myopia's original nine hole course laid out in the spring of 1894 and open for play in June was done by three Myopia members, R.M. Appleton, Thomas Watson Merrill and A. P. Gardner.

You're right, you did mention it. I'm still trying figure out why it was impossible for Campbell to lay out this nine when he came over March 31, 1894?

[TEPaul]

"You're right, you did mention it. I'm still trying figure out why it was impossible for Campbell to lay out this nine when he came of March 31, 1894?"

Mr. MacWood:

Yes, I'm quite sure you are. That doesn't surprise me at all. 

Why don't you try IMing Mike Cirba and perhaps he can help inform you?

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
Was it also impossible for Campbell to layout the new nines at Essex and Brookline in the spring of 1894? I believe they both opened prior to Myopia.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Since your back into your point-missing endless questions again here's sort of how a basic timeline analysis works:

IF Mike Cirba's ship passenger manifest listing on Campbell arriving in this country for the first time on 3/31/1984 is true, then Campbell logically could not have laid out that original nine at Myopia because the timelining of the club's records basically indicates the original nine was already laid out by Appleton, Merrill and Gardner BEFORE Willie-Boy Campbell first sailed into Boston harbor from abroad.

Is that too hard for you to figure out? I hope it at least makes it unnecessary for you to continue asking your constant point-missing questions!   

Oh by the way, Mr. MacWood, if you haven't gotten to this sentence then I guess that means you haven't even bothered to read a whole post again! 

[Thomas MacWood]

“At a meeting of the Executive Committee March 1894 it was decided to build a golflinks on the Myopia grounds. Accordingly the ground was examined, and in opposition from a number of members because the ground was so rough, nine greens were sodded and cut, and play began June 1st, 1894. Members and associates soon began to show much interest in the game, and the first tournament was held June 18th , 1894. About twenty five entries. Won by Herbert Leeds of Boston who was scratch. Score first round 58; second round 54; Total 112. The second tournament held on July 4th , 1894. About twenty entries. Won by Herbert Leeds, scratch 52-61-113.” ~~Ed Weeks

TE
I'm having hard time figuring out how this timeline precludes Campbell from laying out the course, there is no mention of when the course was laid out, please explain.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

The answer to your question is in reply #212 of the "Comparing and Contrasting GCGC and Myopia" thread.