[Patrick_Mucci]

Ken,

Do they ignore it, not see it, or see it but feel it's useless to complain ?

[Mike McGuire]

Pat-

This is an important question. As we are working on our master plan our members are asking the same thing. Why make the course harder?

Would a restoration effort - Langford 1930- where you replace sand in a grassed over fairway or green side bunker be considered making the course harder?

[Ken Moum]

Ken,

Do they ignore it, not see it, or see it but feel it's useless to complain ?

Usually, the conversation went like this:

Me, "You know, a couple of years ago that drive would have been in the fairway."

Them, "You know, you're right"

Me, "That used to be a good place to hit it if you were worried about going OB."

Them, "Yeah."

Me, "Did you notice that the same thing happened on the right side of 14 and the left of 15?"

Them, "Really?"

The whole thing has astounded me. But the truth is I might not have been that aware of if I hadn't been away from the club for two years.

We came back last year and on about three or four holes I kept hitting tee shots that looked like they were fine, only to find them in deep rough. It took me longer than it should have to figure out what happened.

When I did figure out that the rough lines had been moved that much, I started looking for it on other holes and discovered that it had been done on almost every one. The example you mentioned of hitting a good drive over a bunker only to find it in deep rough is typical, but it's also the kind of change that 90% of the golfers would never notice, because they never carry that bunker.

FWIW, I was plenty unhappy, because I figured it was done to make the course harder, but the fact is, we are on a wickedly tight budget and out superintendent did it to save a few dollars on mowing, fertilizer and herbicide.

I'm still saddened by what's happened to a course I love, but I have a lot of respect for a guy who's producing good playing conditions on a shoestring.

Ken

[Patrick_Mucci]

This is an important question. As we are working on our master plan our members are asking the same thing. Why make the course harder?

Would a restoration effort - Langford 1930- where you replace sand in a grassed over fairway or green side bunker be considered making the course harder?

Perhaps, but, I think it takes precedence and is the more important objective.

I'd also be curious to know the history of how the original sand bunkers got grassed over.

[Mike McGuire]

Pat -

This winter I plan to go back thru the club archives and construct a timeline of the courses architectural history. We have the minutes all the way back to the first board meeting.

I do recall reading the club put sand in the bunkers at one point because the members did not know how to hit a bunker shot and could not travel very well.

The course was designed with sand in all the bunkers. Its likely it was not originally put in, then added at some point and then grassed over later.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

This is a good and important issue and question of yours (as we discussed the other night).

The question is---why do so many people at some of these golf clubs want to make their courses so hard in various ways when they should know that even they aren't really good enough to play them well in these conditions and they surely know most of their membership aren't.

As I said the other night, Pat, I'm not completely certain of the reasons but I feel it just has to have something to do with human nature and some even subliminal drive to compete with others as to "my course is tougher than your course." It's probably not much different from that child-like reaction the "My Dad can beat up your Dad." I guess it's just some badge of honor, kind of thing. I guess some just have an eternal fascination with that old primal contest of man against Nature, and all that subliminal dynamic means. (Why do some take pleasure in going to "Outward Bound" type things for a week or so or why do some take pleasure in trying to climb Mount Everest?).

Historically, even super hard courses like Pine Valley have seen this phenomenon in how much high handicappers seemed to actually enjoy shooting a million on that course just to say they vied against it like the Big Boys that Crump invisioned it for.

In my opinion, this whole thing is something like the fascination of trying "to ring the bell at the State Fair." Most everyone knows they could never hit the slammer hard enough with the hammer to drive the weight to the top to ring the bell, but they seem fascinated in seeing how far up they can send the weight.

Maybe they feel somehow they could do it or get it up there far enough that they might get laid almost immediately since their girlfriends are generally there to watch them.

[David Lott]

Mindlessness--the ability of more or less smart people to fail to consider the broad consequences of their actions.

Sheepfulness--the ability of humans to follow the mindless.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

In the minds of golfers and clubs, does difficulty equate to merit and/or greatness ?

How do the really hard courses fare in the rankings ?

[George Pazin]

Ego.

[Jim Franklin]

How do the really hard courses fare in the rankings ?

Since Resistence to Scoring is a category with Golf Digest, they generally score very well. Although some are so hard they are not fair which ultimately detracts from their scoring.

[tlavin]

There are courses that have difficulty as part of their underlying creed or tradition (Oakmont, Butler National, the Ocean Course, to name a few) where difficulty is perfectly acceptable, IMHO, even for the regular membership.  My beef is where you have a nice members course and TTIC (those temporarily in charge) decree that the course has to be made hard to satisfy their sense of self.  This is an abomination.  I was a member at a golf course that had sort of dropped off the map here in Chicago.  A new crew took over the board and next thing you know, the greens were putting at 13 on a regular basis.  That move dramatically altered the enjoyability of the course and also made it five or more shots harder.  No way to run a railroad.

[George Pazin]

There are courses that have difficulty as part of their underlying creed or tradition (Oakmont, Butler National, the Ocean Course, to name a few) where difficulty is perfectly acceptable, IMHO, even for the regular membership.  My beef is where you have a nice members course and TTIC (those temporarily in charge) decree that the course has to be made hard to satisfy their sense of self.  This is an abomination.  I was a member at a golf course that had sort of dropped off the map here in Chicago.  A new crew took over the board and next thing you know, the greens were putting at 13 on a regular basis.  That move dramatically altered the enjoyability of the course and also made it five or more shots harder.  No way to run a railroad.

The really unfortunate thing about situations like this is that usually the ones that make the changes end up feeling good about it, while many more others are unhappy. Maybe that's why those guys end up being TTIC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Terry Lavin,

That seems to be a recurring theme these days.

The question is:  WHY ?

I'd love to hear the explanations.

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