[Mike_Young]

Bob,
I have found First Tee to be more of a "feel good" political machine than anything and there are many that agree.  I saw one raise $800,000 and had about $200,000 for the actual construction.  The bureaucracy around first tee is astounding.  Seems to me we would be much better to negotiate annual fees for such kids with facilities that need the revenue...because once you teach them to play they don't have a place otherwise.  JMO

[Mark_Fine]

Kyle,
Did you ever hear the story about a big storm that washed thousands and thousands of starfish up onto a beach?  After the storm passed, dozens of people crowded along the sand dunes to witness the spectacle.  Finally, a small boy walked down on the beach, picked up a starfish, and tossed it back into the ocean.  Then he bent over again, picked up another one, and did the same.  A man in the crowd yelled out to the boy, “There are tens of thousands of stranded starfish on the beach.  What difference can you make?”  The boy bent over, picked up another one, and as he tossed it back into the ocean, he looked over at the man and said, “I know one thing, I made a difference to that one!” 

The analogy works for the First Tee, scouting , or any other organization that is trying to do the right thing.  All you need are a few success stories to make a real difference.  Better to do something than nothing at all.
Mark

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,
Did you ever hear the story about a big storm that washed thousands and thousands of starfish up onto a beach?  After the storm passed, dozens of people crowded along the sand dunes to witness the spectacle.  Finally, a small boy walked down on the beach, picked up a starfish, and tossed it back into the ocean.  Then he bent over again, picked up another one, and did the same.  A man in the crowd yelled out to the boy, “There are tens of thousands of stranded starfish on the beach.  What difference can you make?”  The boy bent over, picked up another one, and as he tossed it back into the ocean, he looked over at the man and said, “I know one thing, I made a difference to that one!” 

The analogy works for the First Tee, scouting , or any other organization that is trying to do the right thing.  All you need are a few success stories to make a real difference.  Better to do something than nothing at all.
Mark

Not all the "starfish" are given equal opportunity. The analogy is cute, but doesn't reflect reality. Success is relative with any such thing. I'm an Eagle Scout, but would not call myself a Scouting success story.

False hope is equally damaging, in my experience. It ruins one of the most sacred things a child has: unwavering trust.

[Kyle Harris]

I am still a bit skeptical, but the First Tee in Tampa is organized out of a local executive course I play often. The added bonus is the place is lighted and open year round - and conditioning is pretty good for such a facility.

My 8 YO daughter attends clinics at that Tampa facility and it has done more to develop her interest in the game than anything.  We belong to a private club, but she much prefers First Tee, where she can bang balls, play an executive course and get a little instruction from Mr. Jeff (hell, she won’t listen to me).

The clinics are not expensive but they do cost, and even the least advantaged attendees, all of whom appear to be brought there by parents, are not truly disadvantaged in the sense some are using that term here.  But any vehicle that turns kids on to golf is a good thing, and First Tee Tampa Bay does a fine job.

Are you a member at Tampa Palms?

I'm the irrigation tech at Hunter's Green.

[Ian Andrew]

This begs some questions:

1.   Is there anyone on this discussion board that began playing golf through a caddie program or through an assistance program? I would appreciate you weighing in. While I’m a public player, my parents paid for my clubs and green fees – so I can‘t speak to access issues.

2.   Is there anyone - beyond Mark Fine – who has participated in a junior golf program? I ran a junior program at a public facility for a few years without being a member there. I wanted to pay back the person who ran it when I was a junior to show my appreciation. I’m still not sure what’s the best way to do this – although my school program (80”s) seem to have an impact from my experience.

3.   This year I set out to try set up a one day event locally and found the process cumbersome to have the RCGA involved. I regret to say it did not happen because finding a facility and the pros on the same day proved difficult and I ran out of time and decided to start again this winter with more time to arrange everything.  I was willing to part with around $1,000 to get it done but found the arrangements were tough. My goal is to get this done this year for the community that I live in.

4.   I don’t know if the First tee program works or doesn’t – but it is an effort to do something about access. Access is the problem for most kids. Many families can’t part with the cash for clubs and a membership all in one go – they don’t get by on very much. Whether you like to admit it or not – golf is for the people who can afford it – unless there are access programs in place to share or loan clubs to get them going.

5.   You may be right about the First Tee – but rather than tell me it sucks – tell me what will work better. And please don’t say caddie programs, because most clubs have no interest now since the carts generate revenue for them. What’s the alternative?


For reference I wrote about Growing the Game and the programs that work – along with an honest look at the Canadian efforts. The link is here: http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/01/growing-game-day-1-future-links.html

[Mark_Fine]

Kyle,
You have obviously never spent time at a First Tee facility to understand what really goes on.  Watching the commericals on TV does not count as that is not the real thing.  Furthermore, how does teaching kids core values and helping them build self-esteem and self-discipline using golf as part of the lure lead to false hope?  When you really get into these programs you find that the golf part is only a very small part of the focus.  

[Dan Herrmann]

1 - No.  But the Town of Tonawanda, NY ('burb of Buffalo) where I grew up allowed for unlimited pay on 2 town courses, one of which held the '62 Publinx for well under $100.  Best deal in the world, and they still do it (adjusted for inflation).    The place was crawling with teens back in the late 70's and early 80's when I played there. It was also very cool playing with senior citizens - I learned a lot of good things about llfe from those crusty old retred factory workers.
2- No
3 - N/A
4 - True
5 - What would work better?  Better education, even corporate sponsorship.   Because education is the key to a successful future whereby a kid could afford golf as an adult.

[Mike Sweeney]

In New York, seeing basketball played with an astonishing amount of vigor and athleticism on beaten up courts. This, without one adult trying to administer or organize them.

Bob,

Reality is those days are long gone. Rudy Guiliani fixed up the playgrounds in all the neighborhoods and if a kid can play, he starts getting recruited on "the circuit" by 8th grade.

Squash and golf are both competing for a spot in the Olympics in 2016 and they both have similar profiles. Played by rich and poor kids, at least in the US, but very few middle class kids. The StreetSquash kids will have THE nicest courts in NYC this or next season:

http://www.streetsquash.org/about/streetsquash-center/

Here in the NYC first tee.

http://www.thefirstteemetny.org/club/scripts/section/section.asp?NS=MU

[Mark_Fine]

Ian,
Our kids have access to many of the public courses in the area and the fee they pay when they show their card is next to nothing (like a dollar or two).  They earn their card by learning and demonstrating the rules and etiquette of golf (in fact I would bet most of our kids know this better than the average kid who has not been through our program).  Also, every kid gets their own clubs, bag,  and balls (they earn them through the program) and there is a sence of accomplishment when they finally become theirs to keep.  To us, one of the real measures is their improved performance (sometimes just improved attendence) in school (we try to measure this), as well as their return participation to our programs.  I like to think we are making a difference in many lives of the kids in a positive way.  

One last point, when we were building the facility along with its three hole birdieball course and chipping course, there was a lot of vandelism (it is located in a tough neighborhood).  Once the kids found out that we were building the facility for them, the vandelism all but stopped and we found the kids were policing the facility for us.  It was very interesting to see how they embraced the place as their own.  

Back to the Olympics!
Mark

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,
You have obviously never spent time at a First Tee facility to understand what really goes on.  Watching the commericals on TV does not count as that is not the real thing.  Furthermore, how does teaching kids core values and helping them build self-esteem and self-discipline using golf as part of the lure lead to false hope?  When you really get into these programs you find that the golf part is only a very small part of the focus. 

Mark, read my first post on the thread.

Ian,

I grew up caddying and used that as my primary access, along with my high school golf team. I also returned to coach the team for 3 years while I was going to school part time.

[Ryan Farrow]

First off, I have to say that I am shocked by the amount of negativity in this thread.

I have been volunteering weekly at the Phoenix chapter for a little over 10 months now. And if any of you actually knew anything about the program, you would not be on the wrong side here.

First off, the changes that you see in the kids behavior is incredible. I have seen some kids who I never would have expected to make it a week ,end up being some of the nicest, motivated, and helpful kids around. The program does changes the lives of young kids, I see it every week. As Mark has pointed out, its not about producing better golfers, its about making them better people. If they happen to go on and become successful junior golfers, great, or if they are looking for facilities and coaches/teachers to improve their game, the first tee can, and will do that.

And another thing, which I think is great, is the mix of kids from every kind of background, income level, and ethnicity. The first tee is not just for the underprivileged (whom they are very willing to help out if say, they cannot afford to pay for the secession or an event, etc...) it is for kids of all kinds who all deserve the kinds of lessons that The First Tee can teach.

[jeffwarne]

While Little League may have its' warts, TRAVEL BALL is the real mess.
At least Little League is played locally
Travel Leagues are nonsense and dilute local leagues .

The First Tee is OK and does expose kids to golf but is far from perfect-but what is?

Jeff:

Lots of kids "travel" as part of their teams for tournaments and/or contests. What kind of limits do you think are reasonable for "traveling" teams?

Phil,
When medioce level talent kids are traveling 1-2 hours away to play some other town's mediocre level talent kids, I say why not have them just play locally against each other.

That's what All-star teams are for in Little League-AFTER the local season has concluded.

When taeching talented juniors golf I insist they win (and preferably dominate) locally before they set off to play the various AJGA tournaments which in my opinion are a very expensive way to gain experience.  


Ryan-nice post
Nice to see The First Tee is working in many places.

[Bruce Katona]

Mike Young: You hit the nail on the head with Jim Thorpe's comments......without putting words in his mouth, the issue he has with 1st Tee is not the programs that actually reach the kids, but with the G&A Infrastructure and costs at the upper levels of the organization....$$$$ that don't trickle down to the progam levels that serve the kids.

[John Burzynski]

4.   I don’t know if the First tee program works or doesn’t – but it is an effort to do something about access. Access is the problem for most kids. Many families can’t part with the cash for clubs and a membership all in one go – they don’t get by on very much. Whether you like to admit it or not – golf is for the people who can afford it – unless there are access programs in place to share or loan clubs to get them going.

Yes, through the years as I have tried to introduce various neighborhood kids and friends of my kids to golf, this has been the biggest obstacle, and this in a middle class neighborhood.

Greens fees are $5 at the par 3 executive course, but elsewhere $10-$15 for a kid (and many areas don't have the benefit of a par 3 course to access).  But there is an outlay for equipment, even for a basic kids set, and then the miscellanoeous costs of golf.   I can't imagine how a low income family could afford for their child to play golf even occasionally, let alone on a normal basis, without having some financial help from a low cost or no cost program like First Tee.  When it is food or golf, well, it is no contest.

I think that many of us that can afford the luxury of weekly or even more frequent golf, and occasionally at exotic or very expensive courses and locations no less, we often forget how expensive this sport is to play, since we have the means to play.

[Rick Shefchik]

I played with a 15-year-old junior member at my club the other day. Nice kid, good player, loves golf, and is motivated enough to come out to the course by himself and find a game. His parents aren't members; our club offers junior memberships to local kids who want to take lessons and learn the game. We also have a number of kids helping out in the pro shop and around the course who then get some playing privileges. Some are members' kids, some are not.

I know little about First Tee, but I do know there are ways for kids to get involved in golf if they really want to. Ultimately, that's what creates a golfer: self-motivation.

I grew up playing at a private club in the junior program, but never really got hooked on the game until I started riding my bike or taking the bus out to the public course where more kids my age were playing. You could always find a game, and you had to get better to survive. Not a parent or volunteer in sight.

[Pat Burke]

Jumping in...  As we talk about what can or can't be done, remember, there are individuals who are doing great things in their little part of the world.  I am part of a foundation called the Get a Grip Foundation.  Our founder, Jay Miller, owns the lease on the golf course, and is the CEO of the foundation.  Get a Grip provides tutoring with credentialed teachers, homework assistance, and mentoring.  Children who meet a one hour per week schoolwork requirement are given one semi-private (2 to 1) 1/2 golf lesson per week.  If the y are behaving well and working at their education, all students are entitled to all the range balls they can hit, and golf, 7 days per week (after 11 weekdays, after 2 weekends).  Parents who play with their kids play for 15$ which includes a cart (I know, they SHOULD walk, but it is a modern walker unfriendly course)  They are alllowed to walk, and the kids must walk in our events.  I designed the golf program, and oversee the golf instructors.  Our Director, Mike Davis (not of the PGA set-up ) and I worked together to make certain that the kids EARNED their golf privileges, through good grades and behavior.  We will have 300+ kids per week coming through the program, and this is all at NO COST to the kids.  We raise our money privately, and are proud to make a difference in these kids lives.  Obviously our "host" Jay gives up some golf course revenues to host this program (the 3500 sq ft building is on site) but has a huge heart, and is trying to help grow the future in his little corner of the world.
The First Tee is trying, but is more about the donors somethimes, we are really trying to be about the kids!

[Mike_Cirba]

Bob,

I sure hope not because as flawed as it may be, it is the only present vehicle aimed at growing the game among the demographic groups who will make up the majority of the populace of the next generation of Americans.

We still seem to be building the wrong type of courses in the wrong places which doesn't suit long-term growth (or even stay slow decline) in the game, but that's where the money is and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of alternatives due to market factors.   

Eventually, as energy prices continue to rise and cities are restored to prominence, we'll see more centralized models of golf taking shape again, but that won't happen immediately...just over the next 20-30 years.   

[Bradley Anderson]

For the kids who have parents, grandparents, or aunts and uncles who play the game - those kids will benefit most from being taught the game by the people who they look up to the most.

The First Tee is there for the kids who have no natural conection to the game.

[John_Conley]

I played with a 15-year-old junior member at my club the other day. Nice kid, good player, loves golf, and is motivated enough to come out to the course by himself and find a game. His parents aren't members; our club offers junior memberships to local kids who want to take lessons and learn the game. We also have a number of kids helping out in the pro shop and around the course who then get some playing privileges. Some are members' kids, some are not.

I know little about First Tee, but I do know there are ways for kids to get involved in golf if they really want to. Ultimately, that's what creates a golfer: self-motivation.

I grew up playing at a private club in the junior program, but never really got hooked on the game until I started riding my bike or taking the bus out to the public course where more kids my age were playing. You could always find a game, and you had to get better to survive. Not a parent or volunteer in sight.

Rick, how you grew up and how things are where you live now probably have no relevance in most of the country.  A private club that let's juniors out if their parents aren't members?  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it sure doesn't exist anywhere I've lived.

"if they really want to" - ??  Are you serious?  Kids don't just say, "I wanna start playing golf."  They need to be introduced.  This isn't lacrosse or football we're talking about.  Anyone that takes a liking to golf at a young age is either the child of an avid player or a rarity.

Does it really matter that kids used to ride their bike or bus to a course?  That's not happening today.  Maybe at age 14, but parents are much more protective now.

We can talk all we want about how it was when we were young.  Any constructive discussion about the present and future has to recognize that things are different.  Some good and some bad elements mean it is probably no better or worse, but it certainly is different.

I think something is better than nothing and certainly am not going to fault First Tee.

[Sean_A]

I played with a 15-year-old junior member at my club the other day. Nice kid, good player, loves golf, and is motivated enough to come out to the course by himself and find a game. His parents aren't members; our club offers junior memberships to local kids who want to take lessons and learn the game. We also have a number of kids helping out in the pro shop and around the course who then get some playing privileges. Some are members' kids, some are not.

I know little about First Tee, but I do know there are ways for kids to get involved in golf if they really want to. Ultimately, that's what creates a golfer: self-motivation.

I grew up playing at a private club in the junior program, but never really got hooked on the game until I started riding my bike or taking the bus out to the public course where more kids my age were playing. You could always find a game, and you had to get better to survive. Not a parent or volunteer in sight.

Rick, how you grew up and how things are where you live now probably have no relevance in most of the country.  A private club that let's juniors out if their parents aren't members?  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it sure doesn't exist anywhere I've lived.

If clubs were on the ball, especially those middle class clubs which are at high risk for seriously bad times in the near future, they should be allowing juniors of non-members to join VERY CHEAPLY in the hope they stick at it and perhaps join a club properly in later years.  Its a large untapped resource for future memberships.  I think it is a fairly common practice in the UK. 

Ciao 

[Emmy]

Two weeks ago I attended a media conference at a First Tee Chapter site in East San Jose, California. Dr. Gil Morgan was on hand to share his thoughts about The First Tee and the upcoming championship slated for this week at Pebble Beach GL and Del Monte GC.
 
Also in attendance were several dozen youngsters (of varying ethnicity), all participants in the San Jose-First Tee Chapter. Many of the kids were under the age of 12 with social interaction skills well beyond their years.  As the juniors greeted each guest they were  very polite, yet in a natural way.
 
I'm sure some of the credit for their personal/social development goes to dad and mom, but obviously The First Tee is having a positive influence too. I have no doubt, some of these young citizens will be tomorrow's leaders. If so, San Jose will be a better community because of their involvement.
 
 

[Mark_Fine]

Kelly,
Our programs are very integrated with many of the local schools.  Our Executive Director works closely with the school counselors and they are very anxious to cooperate with us.   

You asked about work at the facility?  If you meant me personally, I am on the Board of Embrace Your Dreams.  This organization helps manage the facility, establish the programs, coordinate fund raising,.. and so on.  That is where I spend most of my time though I do get to the facility itself on a regular (monthly) basis to check things out.
Mark

[Rob_Waldron]

Once again I believe Mr. Young is correct in his view. First Tee is very political. My primary concern with the progran is that it seems to provide false hope by charging unrealistic fees which are subsidized. I introduced a kid to the First Tee program in PG County, MD. The cost was $50 per year and included 1 large bucket of balls each day, a series of 5 group lessons, and one individual lesson. When the kid went to play at the local muny there was some serious sticker shock at being charged $25+ for just one round of golf.

I guess if the purpose is introduction to the game First Tee is very successful. If the purpose is to create new golfers for the long term First Tee fumbles when it crosses the 50 yard line. 

[Michael]

While I applaud the efforts of the first tee program..I do think the children/teens/young adults will be in for a rude shock at what happens once out of the program.

 I myself caddied at the local C/C as a 12-16 year old just to play Mondays, I brought my two sons into the game on the local munni, and they got a nice boost with High School Golf, now that that is done..and summer is college spending money...dad is once again the provider of the green fee fund ..not that I mind. As one poster stated.. the realisation of $$$ to play even one round will discourage a lot of these kids...and it is too bad.

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