So how good do you have to be to enjoy/appreciate Pete Dye?

[Jim Tang]

I've been up to Blackwolf Run and Whistling Straits multiple times over the years.  I've also played TPC at Sawgrass down in Florida.  I love Pete's courses but I know before I tee off I am going to get chewed on all day long.

His courses are very penal and sometimes you get only one way to play the hole. During the round, you have to hit a lot of "all or nothing type of shots."   At the same time, his courses are very dramatic and thrilling to play.  Usually when I play a Dye course, I just throw my score out the window and enjoy the challenge of going for broke on most shots.

Even though his designs are tough as nails, I keep going back for more.

[David Mulle]

His courses are very penal and sometimes you get only one way to play the hole. During the round, you have to hit a lot of "all or nothing type of shots."  

That is interesting, I've never played Blackwolf Run or Whistling Straits, but one of the things I like about his courses that I have played is that I think there are very few times when you only get one way to play the whole and I think there are very few "all or nothing type shots". 

Instead, I think you are given lots of opportunities to take an aggressive line, a conservative line, or something in between (I think this is due to his extensive use of angled fairways and greens).  If you take the aggressive line and miss, well, then you might be left with an all or nothing shot - but it is the result of the previous shot selection.

[George Pazin]

But one thing they rarely do--put a hazard in front of a green.  The rationale:  They don't know if a big hitter will be lofting the ball above/beyond with a short iron, or a lesser stick sweating and strangling a 3-wood.  Most of their forced carries come off the tee.

There may not be hazards in front of the greens, but the greens themselves did a remarkable job of repelling shots that I tried to run into them...

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts.

[Tim Bert]

From my perspective as someone who is condemned to a lifetime of 9 - 15 handicap I think I can both appreciate and enjoy his work. The problem is that I struggle to play well. I don't equate the three (another best, fun, favorite thread perhaps.).

I have played the 4 at Kohler, Bulle Rock, Honors Course,Wintonbury Hills (not sure how much of that is actually Dye vs Liddy) and Disney Eagle something or other.

My best score at any of them (exclude Wintonbury which is a much gentler course) is 86 at Honors which I was thrilled with.

That being said I have enjoyed and appreciated what I have seen (other than maybe Disney.)

[Jerry Kluger]

I was wondering about Dye renovations of his own courses.  I have seen what he did at the Ocean Course and I would not consider the changes substantial - only hole I can remember being really changed was 18. 

He did go back and do substantial changes at Cypress Links which is now the Dye Preserve but I have not seen it.  How would you characterize the changes  - is the course tougher, are there different challenges, did he abandon some features which he used fairly often in some earlier designs like mounding? 

[John Mayhugh]

I enjoy playing Dye's courses & generally find them a good mix of challenging & fun.  I don't think you have to be a great player (I'm certainly not), but you do have to think a little bit more than some people are used to.  David Mulle's comments about different options sound about right.  It's just that many of my friends don't want options or anything that could be called "unfair."

[Jeff_Brauer]

I always play close to my handicap on Dye courses (8-12) 

My secret is to play well away from all hazards to the wide side of the fw.  I make my share of pars and bogeys, with the occaisional birdie.

His hazards are generally so severe that it convinces me to play conservatively.  The golf mags always suggest that and it turns out I DO score better without taking any crazy chances I have only a 30% chance of pulling off.

[CJ Carder]

As a 5-handicap, I have my career best round of 72 (+1) on a Dye course, albeit one of the older ones.  Here in Williamsburg, we have the Kingsmill River course and I enjoy it very much every time I play it.  It's not going to wow you from an architectural standpoint, but it is a very playable golf course with a fantastic closing stretch of 16-18. 

I was wondering about Dye renovations of his own courses.  I have seen what he did at the Ocean Course and I would not consider the changes substantial - only hole I can remember being really changed was 18. 

He did go back and do substantial changes at Cypress Links which is now the Dye Preserve but I have not seen it.  How would you characterize the changes  - is the course tougher, are there different challenges, did he abandon some features which he used fairly often in some earlier designs like mounding? 

Incidentally, the River Course at Kingsmill was also one that Pete came back and re-did about 3-4 years ago.  There were several significant changes, including one par 4 (the 8th) that Pete said was one of his biggest design regrets among all of his courses.  I would say the majority of changes fell into the category of making the course more playable (it is a resort'ish course) with bunkers added on a few holes to hold up balls from going into hazards and making near misses not disasterous.  A few of the green complexes were re-designed to accommodate additional angles.  Overall the renovation has rendered the course a bit more playable, though it has lost some of the quirk that I enjoyed from the previous version.

[Joel Zuckerman]

I was wondering about Dye renovations of his own courses.  I have seen what he did at the Ocean Course and I would not consider the changes substantial - only hole I can remember being really changed was 18. 

From what I've seen, Pete continues to make things tougher/longer/more penal with his own renovations--its his modus operandi--he is always attempting to thwart the technological advances in the game from the ground up.  A fine example--his recent stretching of Sawgrass--Stadium's 8th hole to about 230 yards.  His rationale:  When the course opened in the early 80s at less than 200 yards in length, it was a middle iron or longer for most players.  Over 25-odd years, it became a shorter iron for real sticks.  So by stretching the hole to 230 yards, it becomes a middle or longer iron once again.
Another note--his relatively recent renovation of a mostly toothless George Cobb course called Sea Marsh on Hilton Head, only a few miles from Harbour Town, is now a ferocious, sand-laden minefield called Heron Point.  Pete's pushing 83, but he ain't exactly mellowing!

[Andy Troeger]

That is interesting, I've never played Blackwolf Run or Whistling Straits, but one of the things I like about his courses that I have played is that I think there are very few times when you only get one way to play the whole and I think there are very few "all or nothing type shots". 

Instead, I think you are given lots of opportunities to take an aggressive line, a conservative line, or something in between (I think this is due to his extensive use of angled fairways and greens).  If you take the aggressive line and miss, well, then you might be left with an all or nothing shot - but it is the result of the previous shot selection.

I would second pretty well everything David said.

[George Pazin]

I always play close to my handicap on Dye courses (8-12) 

My secret is to play well away from all hazards to the wide side of the fw.  I make my share of pars and bogeys, with the occaisional birdie.

His hazards are generally so severe that it convinces me to play conservatively.  The golf mags always suggest that and it turns out I DO score better without taking any crazy chances I have only a 30% chance of pulling off.

I saw little opportunity to play conservatively at either PDGC or MR; like I said earlier, if RTJ is hard par, easy bogey, Pete is hard par, hard bogey, hard double.

[Jay Flemma]

I love him and I cant hit the back end of a mule with my driver.

[Andy Troeger]

George,
I consider Pete Dye to be a master of visual intimidation, so upon one play it may not be evident where the safer play is, however, from my experience there usually is one. Its pretty tough to make generalizations about an architect from two courses, especially if you've only played each course once or twice.