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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cheater Line Revisted and the Spirit of the Rules
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2008, 01:32:23 PM »
Well, I jumped in with no illusions. You are stuck on your position and the rest of the golf world that abides by the rules and the spirit of the game, as defined in the ROG, is stuck on theirs.

The last word is yours if you want it.  ::)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cheater Line Revisted and the Spirit of the Rules
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2008, 02:25:27 PM »
I agree with Shivas 100%.
I believe his feelings regarding the spirit of the game are quite valid.
And his arguement is better than those who refute his points.
I get the fact that the cheater line is "legal".
I just don't think it should be . . .

-Ted

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cheater Line Revisted and the Spirit of the Rules
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2008, 06:29:00 PM »
The Youtube guy doesn't exactly have it right.  The purpose of the mark is the speed up play on the green.  You mark your ball and while you're waiting you can read your putt.  Using the lines that are fanned out like a protractors, you can pick your line with your ball in your pocket and immediately set your ball down on the correct line when it's your turn....saving you time. 

Interesting side-note about Cameron.  His first major win was Langer's win at the Masters.  On his own at the time, he spent the last 9 holes at a local Walmart with his wife because he was too nervous to watch in person.  Quite a good player too and isn't afraid to pull a good practical joke.  As a person, he's one of the nicest humans you'd ever meet.  I've made many great friends because of him from all over the world.

CPS

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Cheater Line Revisted and the Spirit of the Rules
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2008, 06:40:56 PM »

I've made many great friends because of him from all over the world.


How many people have said the same thing about George Lucas?

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cheater Line Revisted and the Spirit of the Rules
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2008, 07:05:23 PM »

I've made many great friends because of him from all over the world.


How many people have said the same thing about George Lucas?

Despite your insults, a room of less than 100 Cameron collectors peeled off ~$100,000 worth of checks for charity last week.  They may not be up to your social standards, but I can assure you they are people to be associated with.

CPS

TEPaul

Re: The Cheater Line Revisted and the Spirit of the Rules
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2008, 08:47:43 PM »
"Tom P
Ahhh, if golfers are to understand the rules then it is up to them to understand the choice diction of the governing bodies.  Not many people carry a rule book and I have never seen a Decision Book flipped out on the course.  Even if a rule book were carried, Rule 8-2(b) could be a prime example of players attempting to play by the rules, but being confounded by the language or at the very least find the language contradictory.  The powers that be must have thought Behr was a good writer.  By choosing to use the word "anywhere" the governing bodies have thrown an element of doubt as to the correct interpretation of the rule - which of course has sent Shivas on a crazed lawyer like hunt for the ultimate truth.  Since the powers that be don't offer explanations for their decisions it is only natural for golfers to try and come up with a plausible line of explanation themselves. 

In my world (a world without expert rules folk hanging on my shoulder), it is down to the players to figure out how to play by the rules.  The governing bodies should make this process as easy as possible.  With this in mind, wouldn't it behoove the governing bodies to change the wording of 8-2(b) to reflect what the rule really is meant to state?  Otherwise, it is very plausible for guys like Shivas to point out on the course that the term "anywhere" means anywhere and make a claim that a common practice is in fact not legal."


Sean:

I'm definitely not saying the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf and the words and language they use is as clear as it could be, but look, what we are talking about here (lining up a golf ball on a putting green with a line) is extremely common practice, and therefore if ANYONE, you me, Shivas or whomever are really under some presumption that it is actually NOT LEGAL under the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf all you or me or Shivas or anyone else really needs to do is just call up the USGA Rules Desk and ask them!

I guarantee you they will tell you it is allowed under their Rules of Golf. Is there really any more to say about this?

If someone wants to call them up and argue with them endlessly that it should not be allowed that's a different matter. 

I have had all kinds of these issues with the USGA over the years. My proposal on The Honor (Rule 10-1a) went back and forth with the R&A and USGA Rules Committees and the R&A/USGA Joint Rules Committee for over six years. They apparently thought about it very carefully and eventually turned down my proposal---TWICE in the quaderenial R&A/USGA Joint Rules meetings!

Nevertheless, I play golf by THEIR interpretation of The Honor, always have and always will. If someday they decide to adopt my proposal for The Honor, I will play by THAT as will all other golfers willing to play golf under the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 08:51:06 PM by TEPaul »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cheater Line Revisted and the Spirit of the Rules
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2008, 12:34:09 AM »
I just read about the new Scotty Cameron ball mark, and decided that I would never get one.  So I made my own, by drawing a line across the blank white backside of a Pog (little cardboard discs that were used in a game in the 90s).  Is this allowed by the Rules of golf?

Cheers.

PS: I think the "cheater" in "cheater line" is a misnomer.  Plenty of good putters don't employ it, so I think its utility is overrated.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cheater Line Revisted and the Spirit of the Rules
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2008, 07:27:09 AM »
I agree with Shivas 100%.
I believe his feelings regarding the spirit of the game are quite valid.
And his arguement is better than those who refute his points.


Ted, you give me too much credit for the quality of my argument.  How could it not be better? 

Just like Decision 20-3a/2, the argument as to why the cheater line should be legal boils down to just one word:  'cuz.

That's why it's legal.  'Cuz. 

Shivas

I don't believe your assertion is correct.  I am sure the blue suits debated the issue before coming up with a decision.  Its a pity the explanation has not been given, but because we are not privy to the explanation doesn't infer that the explanation is "cuz".  I am just as unhappy with this state of affairs as you, but it doesn't change anything as to what the rules are.  Just so we understand things, your opinion differs from the rules.  This opinion in no way effects what the rules are. 

I ask the question again.  If the practice of marking the ball for purposes of indicating a line on the green were banned would this be in the spirit of rules? 

Ciao   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cheater Line Revisted and the Spirit of the Rules
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2008, 09:45:21 AM »
Shivas,

You love this gizmo ball marker.  100% sure fire way too annoy you and slow down play to a snails pace.  Hopefully this young inventor does not get to market.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mnZOEkJx50

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cheater Line Revisted and the Spirit of the Rules
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2008, 10:28:54 AM »
You guys have no idea how good we have it with golf rules.

I used to officiate high school football.  It was a LOT of fun to spend Friday nights out with friends working a game and grabbing a drink afterward.

But rules in (US) football are pretty strange compared to golf.  In golf, most everything is pretty cut and dry when you include the decisions into any scenario.

Football is nowhere near as exact.  Fouls occur on each and every play, and it's up to an official to determine if, in the spirit of the game, the person fouling has given his team an unfair advantage. 

Can you imagine that in golf?  We'll just let that violation slip because it's not a big advantage?

Nah - golf has it down pretty darn well.

The difference: Guys who play golf agree, in advance, to referee themselves.  And most do a pretty darn good job of it.

Football (and baseball, tennis, basketball, etc.) isn't the same.  It's hilarious to consider what might happen if NFL or NBA players were expected to call fouls on themselves.  As it is, they argue after blatant violations.

I don't think it's an issue of whether or not the rules are clear.  It's much more significant than that.

WW

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