William Flynn's Influences

[T_MacWood]

Very little has been written about William Flynn and he wrote very little (that I've seen), what were his influences? Is it known if he traveled overseas?

[Ed_Baker]

I suppose his "influences" would be mentoring Joe Valentine at Merion.

Dick Wilson started his career as an assistant at Toomey and Flynn.Given the impressive body of work by Dick Wilson and the variety of courses he produced,could it be said that Wilson was influenced by Flynn? From what I have read most architects are influenced in some way by their "apprenticeships".

Doak has said that he learned a great deal from the DYE's,although his own style is different from theirs,is that influence?

As you say there is very little written about,or by the man.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Based on what I know, I would surmise that Flynn learned much of his design philosophy from his contacts with Hugh Wilson and friends.

We know that Wilson was good friends with Crump, also had contacts with Colt, along with the usual Philly suspects of the time (Tillie, Thomas, etc.), which I suspect would have been about the ultimate classroom environment.

One also wonders if the student didn't surpass the teacher very quickly.  It certainly seems that the routing changes and bunker additions Flynn made at Merion in the 20s (with Wilson's involvement) went a long way to creating the course it is today.    

[T_MacWood]

Ed
I was thinking more along the lines of what or who had an influence on Flynn. For example I know he grew up and played his early golf in and around Boston -- where I'm not exactly sure. And it is known Hugh Wilson made a study of the great British courses, I was wondering if Flynn had done the same.

[Ed_Baker]

Sorry Tom, I had it backwards.

Flynn went to Milton High School and played against Francis Quimet(Brookline High)in school matches.He was born in 1890 and Quimet won the Open at TCC in 1913,which would have made Flynn 23.He must have been influenced by the Boston area courses that existed during those years simply because that's all he had access to.So some of the courses he could have played or studied would be:
Oakley CC Ross 1899 (original 9 by Willie Campbell)1898 No longer exists
The Country Club Willie Campbell 9 holes 1893
Worcestor CC 9 holes 1899 Willie Campbell
Myopia  Herbert Leeds Front 9 1896, back 9 1901. Essex ect.

As far as traveling abroad to study courses I would tend to doubt it as he went to public high school and his good friend Quimet was also from humble origins,I don't think he was in a finacial posistion to undertake such a trip.Weather he did so later, after some success in the field is a point of discussion,although I don't think he designed or collaborated on anything abroad.

His first course credit is (layout)1909 at Hartwellville VT. which opened for play in 1911. He was hired as Hugh Wilsons asst. to work on Merions East course during that time.I believe it was his association with Hugh Wilson and the work at Merion that launched his noteriety as a design talent. I'm sure it is no coincidence that his friendship with Francis Quimet,along with his association with Hugh Wilson and Merion got him the job of adding the Primrose 9 at TCC Brookline in 1927 at age 36.

It would appear that do to finacial constraints that his early exposure to golf course architecture would have been local.

During later years he was active with all the golden age greats and actually a peer,I think during that period all the prolific greats were influenced and driven by each other.

A lot of supposistions on my part but thats all I could find on the man.

[Craig_Rokke]

I think a Flynn "timeline" is of interest. He laid out his first course at the age of
19,and he was an accomplished architect by his early 30's. By the time he reached his
mid 40's, he almost seemed to be at a point where he just dabbled in the profession,
with the occasional remodeling job. Did
Toomey's passing during that timeframe
affect his interest in architecture? Or
perhaps the golf boom that had started in the 1920's was finally winding down. At any rate, it appears that little is known about this fine architect compared to his peers.

[Ray_Cross]

Tom...am passing this on to you without checking with the party involved, but I don't think that is a problem.
Possibly the one person who has the most info on William Flynn is Andy Karff. You could write him at Philmont Country Club, P.O.Box 129, Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006.
Andy started the William S. Flynn Cup Memorial Tournament and serves as Chairman. This is an annual interclub event between the nine Philly area Flynn courses/clubs.
Have not attended any of the past events but have talked with Andy about Flynn in the past year.
Good Luck

[GarySmith]

Craig,

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Flynn was a very accomplished man in other fields besides his golf course work.  Not sure, but maybe that had something to do with a possible tapering off of his golf course design business. I think he also passed away at a relatively young age.

[T_MacWood]

Ray
Thanks for the info.

[TEPaul]

It is sort of odd that Flynn's reputation isn't bigger and more impressive than it is. Personally, I think that's about to change.

In my opinion, William Flynn's career inventory is probably more solid than any in history who did more than a course or two. Flynn's career inventory is actually smaller than I would have thought when you think of all the great courses he did but it seems to be only about 40 in number (although quite far afield). So far I haven't heard of a single dog that Flynn did--I don't think there ever was one.

But plenty is known about Flynn and he did quite a lot of writing about his thoughts and philosophies about many things to do with golf architeture--much of it in the USGA Green section reports. Flynn was fascinated by agronomy and very good at that aspect. And he had some very strong and probably radical ideas about golf and its architecture and clearly some opinions that many on this website would probably resist!

It is also important to understand William Flynn, the man, to start to understand his thinking about golf architecture and his career. Flynn was clearly sort of a daredevil in his personal life and he was clearly a man who knew very well how to ply important connections in his career. One can see a very definite connection or thread of powerful people in golf and in industry and society in almost all of Flynn's contacts and clients and courses. Apparently all these contacts and clients liked Flynn personally and hung out with him drinking and socializing. These were some of the most influential people in golf and those central to the great courses of the time like Juan Trippe (Shinnecock) and Clarence Geist (developer of all of Boca Raton and very  powerful around Philadephia). Indian Creek as well!

The so-called "Philadelphia School of Architecture" was far more a collection of architectural friends and collaborators than it was a particular design style and Flynn was very central in that "School", although he was younger than the rest and the last true vestige of it.

Toomey and Flynn also seemed to be a bit of a training ground and architectural clearing house with some of the assistants and apprentices he had like Dick Wilson, Red Lawrence and William Gordon.

But Flynn clearly had his own ideas about golf architecture and he clearly stated he intended to make some changes from what he termed the "obsolete ideas" of the old school! Flynn most definitely believed in the use of trees on certain sites to be very central in the art of design and he was without question an architect who believed  in very "high demand" architecture and strategies if he was given the opportunity to do it! Most of us also know what Flynn thought about the distance ramifications of golf and what that might do to golf architecture and design needs.

Many students of classic architecture sort of rue the fact that the "Golden Age" architects who did so many great courses and expected the art and profession of golf architecture to carry on and go well past  them with creative and innovative designs in the future never saw that really come to pass. Some say it never happened. Many were expecting some sort of "connection" between the "Golden Age" and the "Modern Age" of architecture. Flynn may have been that "connection" that never really connected. Part of it may have been that he died in 1945 at 55. But the real answer probably lies in the Great depression and the lack of work and product.

In any case, Flynn had some serious roots in every way in the "Golden Age" but at the same time seemed to be a real innovator and clearly appeared headed in that direction. What would he have done if he lived another 25 years? If you study him, his thoughts and philosophies and his sometimes radical ideas you can get some indication, but again, I think there are some on here who wouldn't like what they would learn.

I've tried to get Andy Karff onto this site for two years but for some reason he hasn't come on. In my opinion, the real expert on  William Flynn is Linc Roden though!

Interesting Flynn sidebar is he was also an excellent tennis player and taught the game early on--maybe the only really good golf architect who was ever into tennis.

[T_MacWood]

I've read the USGA articles (thanks to Mark Fine), but it is difficult to figure out his influences from those articles. If I were to make an educated guess about his influences, I'd say the courses around Boston, Hugh Wilson and his fellow designers around Phila -- all of whom, I believe, traveled overseas to study those courses. I was wondering if he followed their lead or maybe just borrowed from their experiences.

[TEPaul]

Tom:

I hear you in wanting to know who had an influence on Flynn, his thinking, his style, look, philosophies, whatever.

That is interesting, of course, but what is far more interesting, to me anyway, is that the man appeared to be a natural born innovator and where he may have been going with that and what it might have meant to American architecture is more interesting than who taught him what in the beginning.

He died at 55 and he was probably as well connected (or better) that RTJ himself and probably as good a salesmen and since Flynn was only sixteen years older than RTJ (the major original influence of the "Modern Age"), I'm more interested in understanding what exactly he was thinking and innovating about, not where or even if he originally got it from someone else.

It is pretty clear the connection to the "Philadephia School" though. But he seemed to be very much his own man and his  ideas may just have been him. He clearly stated that he wanted to move on from some of the ideas of the "old school" and that's what we should be looking at, in my opinion.

Much of Flynn's "style", his techniques and particularly his unique routing style is pretty darn individual as far as I'm concerned, and I can't really see that much similarity in some of it to anyone else he may have known or collaborated with. Just like there was  a lot consistently unique about Ross or MacKenzie or Tillinghast or Thomas there was a lot unique about Flynn.

[T_MacWood]

Tom
It is interesting that all the golf architects you mentioned did study the courses overseas.

Wasn't Flynn noted as a great innovator in the field of agronomy? What are some of the 'old school' ideas he was trying to change?

[TEPaul]

Tom:

I don't really know that Flynn was a great innovator in the area of agronomy, I've only heard that he was extremely interested in agronomy and apparently did a considerable amount of writing and maybe lecturing about it, possibly at Penn State.

One old school idea he was clearly trying to change is the old ideas about lack of trees in golf architecture--he was clearly trying to change that with sometimes a heavy and central use of trees strategically and centrally. There is no question of that and his own words prove it. The words "to depart from the obsolete thinking of the old school" are not my words but Flynn's written words.

[T_MacWood]

Tom
From what I understand Flynn experimented with fifty different strains of turf grass for his design of Albert Lasker's private golf course - Mill Road Farm. I think I may have read he was involved in lecturing at Penn State.

As far as his view of trees, I think he was repeating the general view at the time. As opposed to the old Scots, who felt trees were an inappropriate feature on a golf course. But Horace Hutchinson, starting in 1906, and Colt, in 1912, began promoting there use as an important feature.

[TEPaul]

I didn't know that about Colt and Hutchinson that early but I suppose it's clear, as you say, that Flynn was not the only one in America at that time (1920s) recommending such a departure and advocating the use of trees in design strategies. Clearly there is much mention of it in various chapters by Tillinghast in his book "The course beautiful".

[TEPaul]

In some of Flynn's writings on his thoughts  on architecture you can see that he was interested in a particular balance and variety on a good golf course that called for a specific set of shot requirements and demands in sometimes particular places. While this also might not have been that unusual, the extent of those requirements might be a little unusual and might seem almost too severe, particularly for his time. That may be reflected in some of his thoughts and fears about distance dangers to design or maybe again might be reflected in his personality and how it related to his designs.

I think we should keep in mind that Flynn might not always have been allowed by memberships and course principals in this vein to do and design as he might have liked but a course like Shinnecock and particularly the radically difficult "C" nine of Huntingdon Valley might have been an indication of some of his departures. It makes one wonder what lesser golfers were supposed to do about playing some of these designs (with some forced carries that seem way too much even today) but one can see that Flynn certainly was an advocate of a golfer playing from the tees that suited his game and not from tees that were not suited to his game.

Flynn was an experimenter with various tee placements and was apparently the first to recommend that the shortest tees be called "forward" tees and not "ladies" tees.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom MacWood,
Thought I'd help you in your quest to discover William Flynn's influences. Your post above from 2001 has a good number of replies with great info.  Hope this helps.