Thoughts on the Black Course

[Brian Potash]

I had the opportunity to play BPB this past Saturday.

I grew up on Long Island, but hadn't played the course in over 12 years, so much has changed.

First, the course is a brute as expected.  Almost 6700 from the whites.  The fairways felt narrow and the rough was very dense.  The conditioning was borderline immaculate, especically for a public course.  Of course the no carts makes that easier, but the staff definitely takes pride in keeping the course in wonderful condition.  Really a testament to those responsible.

Every whole was either very interesting, very difficult, or both.  My favorites were 4,5 (too hard for me), 6,10,11,15,16.  Overall, I thought the course was very fair, and we had a wonderful time.  Im a 13.6 index and shot a 99 (goal was to break 100, so satisfied there).

One thing though that was very surprisng-  The greens were very slow, but even more so, very easy.  Im not too strong of a putter and I think I only 3 putted 3 times.  Not much break on most of my puts.  Am I wrong, or is there not much difficulty on the greens?  This was a real surprise to me.

From a design standpoint, up to and not including the greens themselves, I liked BPB more than Oakmont, which I played in the charity event last year.  I think even with the greesn i liked BPB better.  But still very surprised how easy the putting was.

[Phil Benedict]

Brian,

Before the '02 Open several pundits predicted that the pros would destroy the Black because of the flatness of the greens.  Didn't happen of course.

Among the reasons I've heard for the lack of slope and contour in the greens are (1) Tillinghast didn't really design the course and (2) couldn't have tough greens on a public course because they would slow down play too much.  Who knows where the truth lies, but some GCA'ers put the Black a notch below places like Winged Foot because the greens aren't interesting enough.

[Dean Stokes]

Brian, I had the opportunity to play last October. I think Bethpage is testament to the fact that you do not need greens that look like roller coasters to make a good test of golf.

I seem to be in the minority on GCA that likes flattish greens with subtle contours. I firmly believe that if the golf course is designed correctly you shouldn't need to bury the bulldozers under the green when you are finished with them.

Nothing worse than hitting a pure iron from 200 and seeing it kick off a mound and finish 40 feet away when it actually missed the target by about 6 feet.

[Bryce Mueller]

others can chime in on this, but as a +4 handicap, the greens actually are sometimes tougher with subtle breaks that become larger at high green speeds as opposed to really sloping greens. I'd much rather play a 4 footer outside the hole knowing it was gonna break in, as opposed to staring at it from 4 different angles not knowing which way it was gonna move...

i played the black last summer, and apart from being blown away from its length, i realized how frustratingly deceptive the greens would have been had they not been so slow that i could bang putts in the back from inside 10 ft...

[Phil_the_Author]

Brian,

Some random quotes from 2002 regarding the greens:

      “Whoever said these are flat greens is crazy. Maybe they're flat for New York, but they're sure not flat for Texas.” Bob Estes
     
      “The greens are flat and generous in size, but that doesn't mean it makes it any easier.”  Mark O’Meara

      “… and from what I've been told, the greens are pretty severe. But I don't know what kind of pin locations they'll have.” Tiger Woods
     
       “Well, they call them flat, but I haven't had a straight putt yet. They are very slippery, and they have got such a good surface on them. Plus, we haven't been here before to read them.” Nick Faldo
     
      “I think somehow, somebody wrote that they were easy and they were flat, and they are not… You know, there are some greens that are flat, but they are flat on top and they might roll off, like roll off the back or roll off the side or have a false front. But the 11th green is severely tilted; 12th green is severely tilted. There's just a lot of them. One green has a false front and then it's fairly flat, but even the flat ones, are punch-bowly, where you can put the pin up towards the side of the green and you are starting to come up the side of the slope and you chip up the short-side, it's going to roll past the hole. If you put the pin in the middle of the green, there's probably four or five greens that you can call flat, but if you put them on the edges, none of them are flat. You always see a few bombs, but they are going to be so fast that -- they are Augusta speed right now, so they are tough to putt already.” Davis Love III

      “That green [15] is bordering on silly. There isn’t any place to hit it up there.” Hale Irwin
     
      “But it isn't silly difficult anywhere except the 15th green. That green wasn't meant to be played at this kind of green speed.” Butch Harmon
     
      “I mean, the 15th green is the most severe green I've ever played in the United States. It's more severe than anything at Augusta.” Davis Love III
         
           “When you have a golf course that’s 7,200 yards, and you have fast greens, you can’t have undulations in the greens, unless you want to see guys shoot 80. If the greens had undulations, it would be darn near unplayable. I think it will be an awfully good test.” Jim Furyk
 
      “There will be a lot of putts made this week - for par.” Hal Sutton

BY the way, sll these were from before the Open began. At that time they were stimping at 13+. By Sunday they were 15+...

[Brian Potash]

I guess when greens are very slow- and they definitely were, you dont realize the undulations, or you dont need to respect them as much.  When I played Oakmont last year I got murdered on the greens.  My home course tries ot keep them at 10.5-11, and the difference was tremendous.  This weekend I felt the reverse.  Hopefully (or not) Ill get to play another time when the speed has increased, to give me more of an idea of what the pros were talking about. 

 

[Matt_Ward]

From someone who has played BB over 200 times in a lifetime a few comments ...

BB has overdosed on the length equation and I agree with those who say it lacks a really stellar short par-4 -- a prerequisite for a all-star layout.

The greens are simply ordinary -- save for a few that are notable -- I am a big time fan of the one at the 15th, to name one notable exception.

WF/W is the superior of the two layouts even though it has a site which is fairly benign.

The main uniqueness of the Black is the scale of the property and how the walk you take from the 1st tee to the 18th green is truly a demanding one and not for those golfers not prepared to the physical nature you will endure.

[astavrides]

I played the black on saturday also.  The greens were indeed slow.  I think if they were fast, they would provide those subtle breaks that would make putting difficult.

The thing that gets me about the course is the unforgivingness, especially off the tee.  Whereas to make a double bogey, on just about any other course, I either need to hit a horrendous shot (eg. OB) or be consistently putrid on a hole, at bethpage, passive mediocrity is usually enough to do the trick.

I also hit 15 bunker shots, which if not a world record, is certainly a personal best.

[Brian Potash]

one of my friends  in our foursome shot an 80 from the whites.  on 15, he put his third shot just over the green, leaving him self a very difficult pitch.  he was bemoaning the fact that by not missing by much, he was in deep trouble.  his subsequent triple did not surprise anyone.  I thought it was great that its so unforgiving.  Its the BLACK.  Thats why they have the warning sign.

[Dean Stokes]

one of my friends  in our foursome shot an 80 from the whites.  on 15, he put his third shot just over the green, leaving him self a very difficult pitch.  he was bemoaning the fact that by not missing by much, he was in deep trouble.  his subsequent triple did not surprise anyone.  I thought it was great that its so unforgiving.  Its the BLACK.  Thats why they have the warning sign.

........that 99% ignore and play from the tips. Were you round in under 5 hours?

[Brian Potash]

taking the weather delay out of the equation, there is no way we would have finished in under 5.  my estimate would be 5:20.

it would take a lot of guts to play from the blues, though there was some sort of golf team in front of us doing just that.  they were spending a lot of time looking for errant tee shots.

[Dean Stokes]

That will be the one reason I will not rush back to Bethpage. I enjoyed the course but my whole experience was ruined by the pace of play issue. We would have been close to 6 hours had we finished before it got dark.

[Doug Bolls]

I may get a chance to chime in on this one end of week - I am going to try to play either Thur or Fri - don't think I can get there early enough Wed.
I plan to play the most forward tees since I am not long off the tee.  Hope to break 100 with my 13.8 index - we'll see.

[Brian Potash]

Doug,

My advice would be to take your medicine and get back into the fairway.

The whites were just shy of 6700 yards.

good luck!

[Matt_Ward]

Those who have mentioned the pace of play situation at BB are spot on.

One cannot play the Black and s-i-t for what seems to be eternity between shots -- especially for a layout that puts so much pressure on the tee shot.

Unfortunately, pace of play has long been an issue with BB. The staff does a marvelous job in many regards but frankly you have people who should not be playing the course at all. They have no game and can't handle the rigors even from the front markers. Unfortunately, for a public facility they must handle all golfers -- the serious one and the clowns variety.

As I said previously the Black lacks a stellar short hole. It has become infatuated with the intense obsession to add even more length on top of the length that was already there in spades.

The other aspect, I've mentioned this countless times, is the ho-hum (more likely weak ) finishing hole. There have been numerous changes to it and the version Rees Jones came up with is at best mediocre and I'm being ever gracious in saying that. The hole could be more entertaining if it was played as a driveable par-4 and serve as a spectacular ending for the '09 US Open.

The Black is also cut way too narrow for everyday play. The density of the rough and the constant looking for golf balls only adds to the time spent playing.

I used to enjoy the Black when it was kept more wild and adventurous. The course is literally almost too manicured -- hard to believe I'm saying that given my days there when grass grew by accident rather than by design.

Years ago I used to have indepth conversations with the late Jerry Mahoney, one of the real great staff people with the MGA on the merits of WF/W v BB. I used to truly believe the Black was the more demanding of the two. That's not the case now. WF/W requires superior length and you must work the ball to get into the proper approach angles into the tremendously demanding greens. The Black does require power -- big time on a few holes of note -- but it's more of the straight fastball tee shots and less of shaping tee shots to certain landing areas.

Last item - I laughed at the people who thought that the 72-hole record for the US Open would be broken during the '02 event. The scale of the property and the unfamiliarity for many competitors -- also the poor weather for much of the tournament -- played a key role in preventing that from happening. The '09 event will be an interesting one to observe. But, the Black needs to think about including a few short holes of note. It's one dimension nature is a type of layout that like those visiting NYC - it's a great place to visit but I would not live (play it) permanently.