[Tim Nugent]

I have to go for "uniqueness" vs shock.  Shock, to me is the 'oh my god, what the hell were they thinking'  response that goes along with nails on a chaukboard feeling.  Uniqueness popped to mind read Tom D's menu of features.  Seemed he was trying to make the features and by extrapolation, the holes - unique.  Kindof an anti-formula, formula.  
The Awe part comes in when it works well within the context of the overall environment/setting.  
Shock and Awe would be Whistling Straights. Shock upon arrival. All the land is just flattish farmland then you get this Disneyland of manmade dunes.  The Awe comes from the fact that once inside the course, you are transported into a linksland environment that makes you forget about the flatland outside the gates.
Shock and Unique  - Something like Desmond Murheads symbolic courses.  Just too much to take in.
Unique and Awe - St. A. No explanation needed.

Hence, I think it is the Uniqueness factor that most are striving for.  Too bad that so many are returning to the old Unique template holes for the Golden Era ( probably  because the architects are dead) like Redan, Biritiz (sp?) etc.  Not very original in my book.  Perhaps it is just a safe way to be different (by falling back on - it's just like "insert name of old, quirky golf hole from famous course or architect" if someone criticizes it.  I'll bet there have been more Redan's built in the past 10 yrs than the 50 yrs prior.  Not very Unique, Shocking or Awe inspiring.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tim — To be unique, then...do you need to lean toward "shock"?

[Tim Nugent]

 Forrest - Interesting ?. No, I don't believe it has to be shocking.  But then, that's in accordence w/ my def. of Shocking.  But every rule has exceptions.  Racking my brain can think of some.  North Berwick comes to mind.  #1 - definitely unique, on the awe side due to the setting (but not shocking). #2 not unique or shocking but I was struck by the understated beauty. kinda 'less is more' awe.  #13 - no awe but unique and a bit shocking use of the greenside wall.  #14  Same , but due to the blind green over the dune mound.  Shocked a bit because it just isn't really done anymore (although we did it at The Dunes Club and Ogrin liked it so much we repeated the concept at High Meadow Ranch).  #16 a bit of all 3 because it was the first time I ever saw an angled Biritiz (how do u spell that?) and on a 4 on top of it.
So, no it doesn't have to be shocking to be unique - just unique.  But that does mean that it can't be a bit of both or all 3.

[Adam Sherer]

I think that a "shocking" course is one that makes you say "Holy #$%@" (or "thats 'WFC'"). The first time I walked onto Shinnecock I got giddy (not shocked but giddy) like I was being introduced to a Playmate; that was a Holy #$%@ moment.

Certain things shock certain people - the beauty of Shinnecock, the grand scale of Bethpage, the strategy of National, the setting of Cape Kidnappers, etc, etc


Joe:  "IBG"?

[Bob Jenkins]

Good topic!

I believe "shock", "awe" or, what I would call the "wow" factor really depends on who you are speaking to or your audience. From what I have learned from a couple of years on this discussion group, this crowd is not at all interested in "shock and awe". "Shock" can sell a new course, but likely not to this crowd.

Having been fortunate enough to play a lot of great new and classic courses in western North America and in Scotland (really do not know those of the eastern seaboard or south or Ireland or Aussie tracks), I would say I consider "shock" to be those courses that are over the top, like a Furry Creek up here in BC, the Desmond Muirhead design of the teeth of the shark, maybe PGA West when it first appeared on the screen.

As for 'awe" or "wow", I suggest:

  - Chambers Bay - Living in the northwest and spending some time in golf, there is no way we would have ever considered having a course of that type up in this part of the world. My response, having played the course twice, is "wow". It is very special. Why? Very firm fairways and greens. Just like Scotland and on top of that, you get a great view of the San Juan Islands!

  - Bandon - That place just blew me away when I first went there. Not just the golf, which has been detailed so many times on this site (especially by Tim Bert when reflecting his passion for Pacific which a lot of us agree with) which made it a big "wow". It blows the socks off any new courses or resorts in the modern world. But to many who would not frequent this discussion group, Bandon may be considered "remote" and too rough for their liking. Because those of us on this site generally love a more natural site and think back to 'links" golf, Bandon is heaven. It may not be so to those who seek "shock".

  - Re Cypress, from what I know, the only "shock" in the design is 16 and maybe the combination of 15 and 16 and you could throw in the tee shot on 17.   The rest of the place is just a wonderful unique Mackenzie layout (assuming it is his layout and not by Marion Hollins as has been suggested). The first 14 holes make the most of the dunes and the forest and 15-17 make the most of the coast. It is a "wow" but not a "shock". Frankly, it is heaven.

  - Tobiano up in BC is a "shock" golf course. Mainly because of the severity and extremes of the place. I suggest the developer was looking for the "shock" in being able to sell lots and houses. The views, the contrasts between fairways and the barren areas just off the course.

So generally, "shock" to this crowd would generally be a negative whereas "wow" or "awe" expresses an appreciation for good architecture, constent with classic values.

[Kirk Gill]

What's nice is that it still doesn't take much to shock a golfer.

Imagine being in a rock band and having to shock someone who's seen gg allin...

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