Which is more important for Firm & Fast...

[Chip Gaskins]

Which is more important for firm and fast conditions...sandy soil or fescue grasses?

- Can sandy soil be made to play firm and fast with bermuda grass?

- Can other soil types be made to play firm and fast with the use of fescue?

[John Moore II]

I think that any type of soil can be made to run mostly firm and fast given a superintendent who knows how to water properly and make use of contours and perhaps topdressing every so often.

[Ken Moum]

Which is more important for firm and fast conditions...sandy soil or fescue grasses?

- Can sandy soil be made to play firm and fast with bermuda grass?

- Can other soil types be made to play firm and fast with the use of fescue?

About 3 weeks ago, I played the fastest course I have played in some time, and it it's bermudagrass, without sandy soil. (In fact it and Cottonwood Hills are the only really fast courses I've played since Scotland in 2006)

Ken Kavanaugh's Longbow Golf Club in Mesa on May 17 and 18 was gloriously fast, with firm fairways and greens.

IMHO, the surface least likely to be firm as fast is zoysiagrass, AKA light green Velcro.

Ken

[Michael Dugger]

I do believe a large factor in firm and fast is THATCH, and whether it is managed properly or not.

[JESII]

It is my opinion that real true firm and fast is primarily dependent upon a membership willing to commit to it...followed closely by a skilled superintendent capable of implementing it...grasses and soils are, in my opinion, ancillary considerations once #'s 1 and 2 are met.

[Tom_Doak]

Sandy soil is VERY important if the climate is rainy ... you can't firm up a clay-based course after rainy weather.  But if the climate is dry, a la the desert, soils and turf type are less imperative.

Fescue is only important to firm and fast because it is more drought-tolerant and the greenkeeper can be more confident about not watering it without killing the grass.

[Chip Gaskins]

i see.

so are there any great firm and fast courses south of Washington DC?

all the great courses south of Washington DC that i know of don't play that way, #2, augusta, palmetto, peachtree, dunes club, etc...  maybe seminole plays different, i have never played it.

my ultimate question is really, can a firm and fast course be built on the coast of north carolina?

[Ed Oden]

i see.

so are there any great firm and fast courses south of Washington DC?

all the great courses south of Washington DC that i know of don't play that way, #2, augusta, palmetto, peachtree, dunes club, etc...  maybe seminole plays different, i have never played it.

my ultimate question is really, can a firm and fast course be built on the coast of north carolina?

Chip:

If you ever get to play Yeamans Hall I am confident that you will conclude that the answer to your question is "Yes!"

Ed

[Jon Wiggett]

Fescue is only important to firm and fast because it is more drought-tolerant and the greenkeeper can be more confident about not watering it without killing the grass.

What you say is correct Tom but I would add that in my experience it is also fescue's fine blade and the fact that it does not have an upright growth but rather lays thus offering less resistance to the roll of the ball that makes for a fast putting surface.

[Richard Boult]

fwiw, Monarch Dunes near San Luis Obispo plays extremely fast... although the fairways are fescue, the greens are velvet bentgrass. From what I understand, this is the only course west of the Mississippi using velvet bent greens. Enlighten me if there's others.

[Mark Bourgeois]

It must be the soil more than the grass by this question because some of the firmest and fastest anywhere in the world, certainly as a collection of courses rather than an individual course, are to be found in the Melbourne Sand Belt (at least before the drought started to bite).

[Joe Hancock]

It must be the soil more than the grass by this question because some of the firmest and fastest anywhere in the world, certainly as a collection of courses rather than an individual course, are to be found in the Melbourne Sand Belt (at least before the drought started to bite).

Or maybe the Sandbelt courses don't face the same "always green, always "perfect"" demands that some other courses must endure.

Another way to look at it then, is how many courses would be F&F if it wasn't for people and elaborate irrigation systems?

 

Joe

[Mark Bourgeois]

Oh yes I agree with that. I didn't see maintenance in the list and thought we were allowed a choice of two.

But Joe I know for a fact you are right because our super came from Royal Melbourne and has really dried things out.

The best part is he's done this using the ingenious cover story of "budget constraints."

Mark

[Greg Chambers]

Selection of proper grass types for the soil and climatic conditions, proper water management, member/golfer expectations (playability vs visual perfection) all play into fast and firm.  Too many golfers expect green grass.  Fast and firm can be very difficult to achieve when uneducated golfers expect perfection (lush and green).