Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

I have generally followed the maxim that "ball flight" is the surest indicator of anything regarding the proper club you should be playing.

I have also followed what club expert Tom Wishon has said that ball flight needs to match the nature of water launching from a hose. The optimum being between 9-14 degrees.

I use a 5.5 Bang Storm driver and the flight pattern works well for me. I also noticed the ball pattern of many of the tour professionals over the last few years and you really get the sense that with the driver they want "penetrating" flight -- so that the ball has enough loft but is more than capable in going through any serious headwind or crosswin pattern they encounter.

I also agree that "actual" lofts can vary between manufacturers and that what it say on the club and what it actually measures out to can be quite different.

Doug S:

So true.

Unless you have the opportunity to try different heads, lofts and most importantly different shafts it can be a less than fruitful experience. Fitters needs to pursue the needs of the person being fitted and do less promotion of a particular model.

Greg C:

Agree with your comments.

The issue is that you have glorified GQ people throwing their collective weight around with all the tech gizmos and it's likely they really don't possess the comprehensive dynamics you stated.

One of the other things I found out -- the actual sound of the ball striking the face may not be super important to many -- but I need to hear something that provides feedback that isn't tinny or so dull.

However, I do agree that too many drivers are set-up to be closed at address -- sometimes as much as 2 degrees and if you happen to be a better player you can snap plenty of balls if not careful. Best bet is to check the face alignment as well as the launch aspect before buying.

Chris G:

Agreed.

The issue I started with was launch monitors -- club fitting goes beyond that narrow area.

The more important point, as you noted, is achieving better overall consistency -- if you gain a few more yards in the process consider that an added bonus.

Chris, one other thing -- I know of golfers who refuse to accept the optimum launch angle because they prefer the trajectory of their shots as they are. Sometimes the "truth" does not set one free.

p.s. One added element -- proper grips are often very much understated as a key factor.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The newest ball onitors that actually use a radar like mode of evaluation are the best...I for one would not purcahse a driver without the monitor eveidence.
Ball flight,distance ect..are all about the shaft..ALL about the shaft and as such the only way to evaluate that is on a good monitor...but it has to be a good one such as those you might find at the major company faclilities or one of the major fitting operations.

The portable units found at local clubs are less reliable but still a good guidline.

[Jason Topp]

I purchase drivers by putting my old one up against new ones on a launch monitor.  I have not bought a new driver for several years because the launch monitor shows they would not help me at all.

I did the full Hot Stix fitting a year and a half ago.  It definitely helped making sure I had the right lofts, lengths and shafts on irons.  The only club they did not suggest changing was my driver, so it seems like the store launch monitors I had used previously were adequate.

Being optimized for your driver definitely sucks.  It eliminates hope that there is secret distance in there somewhere.  Being not optimized also sucks because it feels like you are giving something up. 

[Peter Wagner]

Matt,

I think launch monitors would benefit lower handicap players as they are able to repeat their swings more consistently.  I would seek out the Titleist Demo Day truck in your area.  Very good LM staff and great golf instructors!  I think you would be surprised at what you would learn from these qualified guys.  Don't forget that the can match the ball to your swing numbers too.

Peter

[Dean Paolucci]

Chris G - Steve Wilson is no longer at Essex County.  I believe he is director of golf at one of the Trump Properties.

[Wayne_Freedman]

All valid points, but do not discount the importance of loading.
One of Butler's tools is an club fitted with multiple accelerometers.
We found that my lag increased the load more than a swing speed would indicate.
I went in expecting to move from an S to an R...and went to X, instead.

He is not cheap, either...a former head of power trains for Chrysler Corporation and Ph.D.
in mechanical engineering. He is the only guy I know who spines a shaft in three axis,
for lag, droop, AND twist. That last one is all about accuracy.

In short, this guy is good.   So good that unnamed PGA players send him their stuff to tweak
AFTER the R&D staff builds it.

 

[Doug Siebert]

Gents:

I have generally followed the maxim that "ball flight" is the surest indicator of anything regarding the proper club you should be playing.

I have also followed what club expert Tom Wishon has said that ball flight needs to match the nature of water launching from a hose. The optimum being between 9-14 degrees.

I use a 5.5 Bang Storm driver and the flight pattern works well for me. I also noticed the ball pattern of many of the tour professionals over the last few years and you really get the sense that with the driver they want "penetrating" flight -- so that the ball has enough loft but is more than capable in going through any serious headwind or crosswin pattern they encounter.

Matt,

Are you saying you use a 5.5* driver?  That's extremely low these days since the modern equipment makes a high launch angle much more beneficial.

I don't know about the "penetrating" flight thing with the driver for pros anymore.  They certainly used to want that, but now they are hitting it a lot higher.  I think the distinction is whether the ball rises up to an apex and then drops versus sort of flattening out at top.  When I first started using the Pro V1 and a 400cc at nearly the same time in the spring of 2001 I found by accident that hitting the ball off the top of the face with a much higher trajectory than I was used to (and I'd always hit my driver higher than most people anyway) gave me about 20 yards more carry.  It wasn't until later that I heard about that whole optimization thing and how higher trajectories were desireable for best results with the modern equipment....well, for maximizing carry distance at least, overall distance depends on a lot of other factors and for a guy like me who isn't all that great in the driving accuracy department having a drive drop and stop isn't necessarily a bad thing even if it costs me a bit of overall distance!

With the modern ball I don't even bother trying to alter my driver trajectory when I'm driving into the wind.  The modern ball just cuts through the wind so well its pretty much like cheating compared to how it was in the persimmon/balata days.  There is probably some marginal benefit in keeping the ball lower (certainly in terms of the chance for roll if the ground is very firm) but its not enough for me to risk making poor contact by trying to alter my swing to control the trajectory.  At most I might tee the ball a bit lower but it still flies above the treetops.

[Doug Siebert]

Wayne,

That sounds a lot like what True Temper's ShaftLab measures.  I did that 4-5 years ago and found that the shaft flexes I've been using for years were perfect for me.  I guess its also useful to learn that something you already thought you knew.  At least I know now I don't need to mess around with shaft flex and only need to worry about the other 150 variables that can be tweaked

[Sam Morrow]

Launch monitors are one of the greatest tools ever made. All golf clubs should be fit for you, you are really doing yourself a disservice if you don't take the time to go through a fitting.

I worked for a company who had a Trackman, the same launch monitor used by the major tours, OEM's, and The Golf Channel. Going through a fitting for my driver was without a doubt the best thing I've ever done for my game.

You should remember when going through a driver fitting that the head is the secondary objective, the main objective is to find a shaft that best suits you. This is probaby the biggest equipment related mistake I see golfers making.  The shaft is the engine of the golf club and without the proper shaft you're leaving yards on the table.

Would my fellow members of the treehouse go to Men's Warehouse (yes, I'm a poor golf pro) and buy a suit off the rack or would you get that suit custom fit? Well I know the answer to that.

When I went through my driver fitting I gained 27 yards and became about 8% more accurate (the only reason it's only 8% is because I'm naturally a very straight hitter), obviously everyone is different. I've done fittings where with the proper combination I've given players 60 yards and I've also done fittings where we found the player was already in the perfect driver for them.

I would certainly be shocked if a crowd as astute as GCAer's didn't see the benefits in going through a driver fitting.

[Wayne_Freedman]

He's a True Temper guy...their Fitter of the Year, last year. As good as he is with drivers, he's better with irons. The guy designed a set of irons with double nickel/chrome, and they blow everything else away. Believe this. I have hit everything. It arrives on my doorstep from many of the OEM's, and nothing compares.  They're perimeter weighted, but look like MP-33's at address and feel like blades at impact.

First set he built me was MP-60's with Tour Concept shafts. They are excellent, but these irons are better.  Usually puts M-80 steel shafts in them, and NEVER needs to bend them. The guy is a flippin' artist and scientist. Gets up at 5:00 am and does the math on this stuff.

Wayne,

That sounds a lot like what True Temper's ShaftLab measures.  I did that 4-5 years ago and found that the shaft flexes I've been using for years were perfect for me.  I guess its also useful to learn that something you already thought you knew.  At least I know now I don't need to mess around with shaft flex and only need to worry about the other 150 variables that can be tweaked

[Eric Pevoto]

Make sure you find/read Tom Wishon's latest book:  The Right Sticks. 

I work for one of the big box retailers right now, use a LM quite a bit, and I'd have to say using a launch monitor indoors is certainly better than just hitting balls into a net.  Is it ideal?  NO.  Are all fitters capable? Sadly, no.

Best scenario is an outdoor setting and a knowledgeable fitter/teacher.  Here, launch monitors enable the fitter to zero in much faster than simply using ball flight.  That said, the fitter still has to have a good eye for what's going on with the player's swing and, like others have said above, a thorough knowledge of various shafts.

Twenty-five years ago, at the end of the persimmon era, I learned from an excellent teacher what a low spin/high launch shot looked like and how it's hit.  It was a necessity for playing in wind.  The launch monitor speeds what was essentially a trial and error process.

Also, don't get caught up in the distance numbers.  I don't think you can take them as absolute.  Outside of other variances, most software allows you to "weight" their settings for a more favorable outcome.  Just for fun, ask to see the settings. The LM works for comparing one club to another with the same machine, but I wouldn't compare the numbers from one machine with those of another.   

[Wayne_Freedman]

I have read Wishon's books and spent time with him. Good guy.  And agree that launch monitors do not tell the complete story.
But they certainly get a player into the ballpark. Hit it in 3 dimensions at distance, and tweak from there.

[Mark Pearce]

A slightly different question.

I'm booked in for a full launch monitor/flight tracking session in a couple of weeks time.  Can those who've been through this say if there's anything I should do to prepare to get maximum value from this session?

[Wayne_Freedman]

Bring  your normal swing, and don't get sucked into 'beating the machine'.