Can someone explain something to me about # 13 at ANGC ?

[Jerry Kluger]

The entertainment value of GCA is priceless.  If Pat and TEP didn't post on GCA there would be a dark spot in my day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

And just because you could get a drop where I drew the picture doesn't mean there might not be other places where you can't. 
[/color]

Look at the photo.
Could you tell me where those places might be ?

And, isn't Rae's Creek a lateral hazard until it approaches the green ?[/color]

And in the end, it is the Committee's decision, not yours or mine. 
[/color]

I'm well aware of that.
But, I'd like to know the rationale behind their decision and why they chose such a benign location.[/color]


But, since you know more than they do you would know that it isn't needed.  [/color]

That's your opinion, which TEPaul respects,  but, it doesn't address the core issues.[/color]


And here I was hoping a picture might save 1000 words


It did, it showed that there doesn't appear to be any area where a drop
zone is necessitated.[/color]

[Wade Whitehead]

At the risk of getting flamed, I'll say:

In general, I view drop zones as a cop out.  I understand that they can have a positive impact pace of play, but they never add challenge to a hole.  Literally, they improve prospects for a player who hits a poor shot.

To argue that the drop zone on 13 was in any way intended to speed up play is ridiculous.  If pace of play were a concern at all, the 5+ hour rounds played by twosomes on Sunday wouldn't have been permitted.

WW

[Kalen Braley]

I think Patrick is right on this one and I've taken a picture from a different aerial angle to show why.



There is plenty of room on the long side of the hazard to take a drop within 2 club lengths.  Letting them go to the drop area in front is letting them off the hook with a back right pin.  I doubt many would go all the way back to where they hit thier original shot when there is plenty of room right and long over the hazard.

Kalen

[JohnV]

Take the new picture.  If a ball goes into the hazard at X or Y (note these points are on the green side of the hazard), the drop could be either in the woods to the left of  the creek or you might have to go a 100 yards or more back to get out of the creek depending on the angle.



Could they play the tournament without a drop zone?  Yes.  Are they being nice?  Yes.  But, the player is already paying a one stroke penalty and still won't have that easy a pitch to those greens.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

Based on X and Y as shown in that photo, the forest looks much farther away than 2 club lengths so it seems they would have plenty of room to take a drop.

I understand for ease and timeliness its nice to have a drop zone, but as has been stated, it doesn't appear that they are dedicated to reasonably paced rounds.

If anything I think it would be more interesting to watch these guys play from various angles/spots and have difficult recovery shots to the green.

[JohnV]

Kalen,

This is a regular water hazard marked yellow.  Two club lengths has nothing to do with this.  You have to draw a straight line from the hole through the location where the ball last crossed the hazard and continue until you exit the hazard.  Then from there you can drop somewhere along that line.

Look at the picture below:


The pink line is the line along which the player must drop.  But, the entire pink line as drawn here is still inside the hazard.  The player would have to continue backwards until he got outside the hazard before dropping.  Given a specific hole location and the fact that the creek is relatively straight, you could have to go back quite a way to drop.

[Adam_Messix]

Kalen--

With the front left hole location, the point where the ball last crossed the margin would most likely have you dropping in a group of rhodies to the left of the green.  Past the rhodies, you have a major downslope over the rhodies to a tight hole location.  The best play in that situation (without a ball drop) would be stroke and distance. 

Ball drops are definitely NOT cop outs.  It's the best way to maintain EQUITY in case of a strange angle. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

JVB,

X and Y appear to be on the far bank of the hazard and not the point of entry where the ball last crossed the "margin" of the hazard.

You should present a more precise and accurate example.

It's the point where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard, and, that margin isn't at the bottom of the creek.

[JohnV]

Patrick,

There is no reason the ball can't enter on the far bank of the hazard.

[Brock Peyer]

I can't say that I can remember someone using the drop area other than Sneddy, I did notice that there weren't any other divots.

[Matthew Mollica]

Another good reason for a drop zone is something like #11 at Augusta.  The committee doesn't want a ball which entered the hazard after running off the green to be dropped at the green side (or even on the green) so they mark it as a regular hazard and then put in a drop zone.  The other benefit of this is that it removes any argument about a ball which curved in the air as to whether it crossed the line before the green or alongside it.

With this in mind, and the Vijay Singh drop on #11 on Sunday on his way to the 2000 Masters win, as well as the angles many speak of in this thread -

Is the use of a drop zone manditory?

Could one elect to drop instead of useing the drop zone?

Matthew

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

There is no reason the ball can't enter on the far bank of the hazard.

JVB,

You and I both know that the topography on the far side of the bank doesn't lend itself to a ball going beyond the hazard and rolling back into the hazard on # 13.

And, balls hitting into the bank, NEVER cross the far side margin of the hazard, thus, it's the point of entry, not where the ball ends up that determines where the drop must occur.

Hence, your X and Y are misleading and not reflective of the nature and configuration of the terrain and the hazard in that area.

What would assist in this discussion is knowing the precise location where the hazard transitions from a lateral.[/color]

[Michael Moore]

You and I both know that the topography on the far side of the bank doesn't lend itself to a ball going beyond the hazard and rolling back into the hazard on # 13.

Pat -

Balls hit from beyond and to the right of the green could easily enter the hazard at the points that John has indicated.

[Mike_Young]

I go to a rules school every other year.....just to go....I fall asleep and eat lunch...do email etc then drive/fly back home etc.   SO I don't claim to know anything regarding rules.  However a good friend and our golf professional at Longshadow , Ed Hoard has conducted many rules seminars and works rules each year....he was on 13 for a couple of days this year.....I asked why there was a drop and he informed me it was because of the angle of the hazard and to give the player another choice besides "stroke and distance".   I don't know if that helps or not but thats all I need to know..... of course I never hit in a hazard either

[JohnV]

Is the use of a drop zone manditory?

Could one elect to drop instead of useing the drop zone?

Matthew

Drop Zones should never be mandatory, although I've seen Rules Committees make them mandatory.

The standard wording on a local rules sheet is something like "For any ball in the pond next to the 11th green, as an additional option, the player may, under penalty of one stroke, drop a ball in the drop zone located to the front of the pond."

Mike,

I've taken at least 3 Rules Workshops where Ed was the teacher.  Glad to hear that hegave you the straight scoop.  Too bad Patrick probably won't believe an expert who was on the scene.

[Mike_Young]

Is the use of a drop zone manditory?

Could one elect to drop instead of useing the drop zone?

Matthew

Drop Zones should never be mandatory, although I've seen Rules Committees make them mandatory.

The standard wording on a local rules sheet is something like "For any ball in the pond next to the 11th green, as an additional option, the player may, under penalty of one stroke, drop a ball in the drop zone located to the front of the pond."

Mike,

I've taken at least 3 Rules Workshops where Ed was the teacher.  Glad to hear that hegave you the straight scoop.  Too bad Patrick probably won't believe an expert who was on the scene.

John,

did you just take the Oregon workshop.....Ed is one of the best IMHO....he loves those rules

[JohnV]

Mike,

No, I went to Port St. Lucie this year for Ran's brother and Jesse Barge.

I've had classes with Ed in Portland and Ponte Vedra in the past.

Ed is one of the two best instructors from the PGA in my opinion.  Mark Wilson is the other.  There are plenty of good ones, but they are the best I've had.

[Kalen Braley]

JVB,

Thanks for the clarification on relief for a yellow staked hazard.  I still struggle making sure to take the drop correctly.

To eliminate the confusion, could this just be changed to a red staked hazard?