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Patrick Hitt

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Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2002, 12:31:13 AM »
Here are a few pictures from my trip to Aronimink last fall. I saw a majority of the course restored, a few holes in progress, and a few with the old Rulewich bunkering. I had the pleasure of talking to Ron Pritchard while we finished up the round. We discussed similarities and differences between the Skokie restoration and Aronimink's work, and the process of getting the job finished.
I know I mentioned this before - but it is interesting that the McDonald crew that did the work at the course came directly from the Merion job.
The pictures are poor quality - but they give an idea of what's to come.

The view off the first tee.



The fun par 3 5th



Some of the detail of the greeside bunker work by McD Bros



The MEMORABLE short 7th


Another view of the 7th green from the right



A bunker at a nearby course built by the same crew under a different architect group.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2002, 01:18:57 AM »
Patrick;

Thanks for sharing your pics of Aronimink.  The 7th in particular is a really fun, challenging, appealing hole with an exacting pitch required.  

Thanks also for posting the last picture of the "nearby course".  Those interested in the fine details of "restoration" efforts might want to have a look at page 70 in Geoff Shackelford's "Golden Age of Golf Design" for comparative purposes.    

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

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Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2002, 09:09:33 AM »
Patrick:

As someone who has played Aronimink and also knows Skokie
so well, what are your thoughts on the restoration job that
Ron Prichard did at each course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

TEPaul

Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2002, 11:22:48 AM »
To me one of the more interesting aspects of Aronomink's restoration is the way Ron Prichard and the club looked at the apparent difference of some of the bunkering schemes between Ross's (Walter Erving Johnson's) very detailed hole drawings and the early aerials of the course apparently "as built".

Why there was a descrepency such a short time after opening was a mystery, so Ron and the club decided to go with Ross's very detailed hole drawings although that might have meant the course was being restored to something it may actually never have been bunker-wise! I thought that was very interesting and if I was part of that restoration effort I certainly would have concurred! But that may have been a first in a restoration project!

I suppose the conclusion on that mystery was that someone like J.B. McGovern may have taken some "in the field" liberties with the construction of some of the bunkering schemes without Ross knowing about it!

Could that have had something to do with Ross's odd statement on opening; "I intended to make this course my masterpiece, but not until today did I realize I built better than I knew"?

Or are people like us making too much of that statement today?

Nevertheless, the restored Ross schemes by Prichard are really good and much more strategic than the way Aronomink played in the past "modern age" decades! Off the tees holes like #2!!, #3, #6!, #10, #12!, #13!, #14, #15 are much more "tee shot" strategic than they were. But like almost all of Ross's courses Aronomink is really a second shot golf course because of the greens and their design interest with approach shots and recovery!

It's true Aronomink has always had the reputation of being a little light on variety, obviously because it was a course designed with far more original length throughout than most of Ross's other courses!

Aronomink also does not really have the "quirk" that many other Ross courses do, particularly his earlier courses and frankly that very well may be because it was one of Ross's latest courses and like many other architects he'd probably evolved in the things he did!

Aronomink was obviously designed as a "championship" course, something that Ross didn't do all that much of, as far as I can see. Certainly there is Pinehurst #2 and a couple of others but that kind of "championship" offering was not that common in Ross's career inventory, it seems.

But many of those "golden age championship" courses are interesting today because they do seem to have the capacity to hold tournaments for the highest caliber players today without being stretched or redesigned much at all.

Basically Aronomink has always been a course that was designed to be a 7,000yd par 70 if need be and that is very interesting when you compare the way golf was played in the late 1920s and the way it's played in 2002!

Frankly, I think an interesting subject would be to list and really analyze all the true "championship designs" from the "Golden Age" and to discuss how those early designers envisioned them being played (strategically) by the top flight players of the 1920s and 1930s and how they might view the way they are played by the top flight players of the 21st century!

Ron Prichard has some very interesting things to say on that subject, I believe! Things like how enduring some of those championship designs really are, on the one hand, but also how many of the advances in agronomy etc (and other things) throughout modern times have actually made many of these courses more challenging (and enduring!?) than they were in the beginning! Things like the multi-optional chipping areas that did not exist back then like they do today and also obviously the increased intensity in the playability of the greens due to increased speeds!

It would make for an interesting discussion indeed! This type of early "championship course" IS enduring but as to all the "whys" is what makes the subject so interesting to discuss!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2002, 06:45:49 PM »
TEPaul,

I must apologise but I can never ever remember the name of the green chairman that we played with, that knows Suzann P. from Norway.  I can remember his face and his humour though!!

However, back to the restoration bit...I thought that the green surrounds on the course could be cut even shorter in some areas to create more doubt in a players mind by having more chipping areas rather than pitching areas as I call them.

For example at the back of the 16th Par 5.  I think that the area behind this green should be cut to chipping height to create a bit of doubt in the players mind (especially someone playing like me  :-[ ).  Everytime I hit a chipping area, I didn't quite know what to do:

Chip and run
Pitch it
or
putt it

sometimes I putted and came up short, sometimes I chipped and duffed it.  By having these areas you find out who really has the imagination around the greens and a better player will pull off these sort of shots.  I didn't find the pitching areas that interesting as it didn't tax my brain.

What do you think?

Brian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2002, 06:59:34 PM »
Brian,

I would agree that the downslope behind the 16th green should extend at least another 10 or so yards to the bottom of the slope.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2002, 12:19:35 PM »
Brian:

I'd have to go back out there and look at that area behind #16 but generally I agree with you and I really like the chipping area idea at Aronomink and for mostly the reasons you mentioned---there are so many diverse and interesting shots and types of things to do from them and that can only be good in my mind.

Aronomink is just the type of course where chipping areas both work well and look right to me too! The course is a big, flowing parkland course with sort of softer transitions and that's the kind I think chipping areas work well--also just being Ross it works with his style on certain courses.

On the other hand, chipping areas wouldn't really look right or work well with the style of say Pine Valley because that course is the opposite end of the spectrum in design with narrow and definited transitions--and that's the way it's supposed to be--razor thin margins for error!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2002, 02:59:29 PM »
TEPaul,

I totally agree with you.  The one thing I hate is when chipping areas are created for the sake of having a chipping area much like the ones you see sometimes on the PGA Tour where it looks like the super has decided himself to create one.  

Those sort of chipping areas look awful.

Aronimink has so much room around the greens that could be used for chipping and it isn't used enough in my opinion.

Brian.

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2002, 05:46:57 PM »
Mike Cirba:
Good to see you the other night.  Hopefully we'll get a chance to speak more in the future.

To the best of my knowledge 9 and 18 were never switched.  

I can see where this could possibly fit given the location of the two greens being reasonalbly close to one another with the ninth being a little closer to the Clubhouse.  

Every picture I have ever seen shows those two holes in their current location. Including the original field sketches.

This also seems to be the case when one looks at the locations of the tees.  

It would be a pretty long walk from the 8th green to the 18th tee and conversely it does not seem to make a whole lot of sense in walking back from the 17th tee to the ninth tee given the location of 9 tee, etc.  

I, also, believe this is paricularly true when one considers that Aronimink has always been primarily a walking course where even today it requires almost an act of congress to get a cart.

Best,

Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2002, 05:56:43 PM »
Dave Miller and Ed Baker:

Are you two maniacs back in the Boston area yet?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2002, 06:26:10 PM »
TEPaul:

Yes, we arrived back in Boston @ 2:30 PM.  Good to see you.  Hope we can get together again soon.

Best
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2002, 06:55:03 PM »
Good, because the Ardmore police were looking for you guys! They called me up and I said: "Ed who, Dave who?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2002, 08:51:51 AM »
TEPaul:
Were they after two guys who broke the law againsts bad golf in Ardmore.

Cheers,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

green indian

Re: The Resurrection of Aronimink
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2002, 11:14:09 AM »
Ran,

Can't wait to see the AGC course profile and pictures!  Any thought on when it/they will be posted?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »