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Joe Hancock

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What is the game of golf?
« on: March 29, 2008, 04:30:30 PM »
Would golf have survived had there been not one bit of human vs. human competition in the history of the game?

Would golf survive if the game became a matter of golfer vs. course, without the human vs. human element?

The game seems to be quite flexible in the purpose it serves the participants, but I doubt it would have ever flourished or survived without the human vs. human element.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

mike_beene

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2008, 04:42:36 PM »
Maybe not in the same form. However,the New York Times crossword does well. (at least the crossword still has credibility)

TEPaul

Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2008, 04:48:05 PM »
Joe:

My answer would be no to your two questions (which, by the way, are remarkably similar ;) ).

However, I do think those on here who can only see the game of golf as nothing but human vs human are of below average lemming mentality!   :o

If they merely read Rule 1-1 they can quite easily see that the definition of the game of golf does not mention a human opponent.

TEPaul

Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2008, 04:57:45 PM »
Joe, some of my most enjoyable times on a golf course have been alone playing two balls against one another---let's say one is Snead and the other Hogan or Arnie vs Jack or Tiger vs Mickelson or some such thing.

HOWEVER, the question is---have the Rules writers who have explained in Rule 1-1 that the game of golf doesn't necessarily need another human opponent thought of how I can play two balls with one being Arnie and one being Jack without me violating Rule 1-2? Probably not, which would mean the Rules writers are also probably of below average lemming mentality!

John Kavanaugh

Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2008, 05:39:46 PM »
TE,

Your example in a world where human competition does not exist begs the question of who was Adam thinking about while he banged Eve.

Jim Thompson

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2008, 06:23:03 PM »
TE,

Your example in a world where human competition does not exist begs the question of who was Adam thinking about while he banged Eve.

Lilith and all his stuff....
Jim Thompson

Don_Mahaffey

Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2008, 06:44:10 PM »
Long winter  Joe  ;D

Golf is not like mountain climbing or hiking...because there is a score, be it match or stroke, there will be competition.

Golf may have survived in some form, but not at near the level it now has. No one wants to watch Tiger just play, they want to watch him compete.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2008, 06:48:08 PM »
TE,

Your example in a world where human competition does not exist begs the question of who was Adam thinking about while he banged Eve.

John, sounds like a good illustration for my eight grade confirmation class.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Joe Hancock

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2008, 07:45:37 PM »
Thanks for the responses, even if it means y'all calling into question my sanity.... ;D

The reason purpose of the thread is for me to work through what the prevailing mentality of the game of golf is. We have discussed strategy for years and years, and it almost always comes down to how an individual plays a hole to have fun or be adventurous or to take advantage of features. It seems that it is more rare to hear someone talk about strategy in the context of match play and beating an opponent. Which got me wondering about the whole competition thing and whether the game might have survived without it.

Don, the hiking/ mountain climbing analogy came to me later, after I posted the thread. But, like you say, there is no score there and it really is a personal achievement thing vs. beating another human. That also takes me on another line of thought.....I love exercise when it involves a sport or competition, like tennis or golf or hockey. But, to go out and jog 5 miles or ride my bike for 20 miles for exercise has little appeal for me.

Anyway, thanks for indulging.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2008, 10:20:14 PM »
Joe - if you'll indulge me:

Another way to explore your question is to ask whether anyone here has ever played a round of golf all alone, all by himself; maybe on a nearly empty golf course at the end of a warm summer's day, the sun low and the breeze cooling, or very early in the morning, with the promise of a glorious day ahead and dew on the ground, and with the silence and beauty of a grand cathedral enveloping the senses. Do you think anyone here has ever had that? Maybe all 1500 of us have, at least once. I know I have, and I've enjoyed it very much - enough to conclude that while the GAME of golf is best enjoyed with friends and via competition, the EXPERIENCE of golf requires neither; it is a blessed experience all on its own.

Would golf have developed the way it has without the element of human vs human competition? The GAME of golf almost certainly would not have, but for those (many fewer) men and women who found golf anyway and fell in love with it, the EXPERIENCE would be wholly undiminished, I think. And to be honest, I'm not sure anyone can even fully enjoy the GAME aright if he/she hasn't had or doesn't seek that EXPERIENCE, at least occasionally. If someone can't enjoy a thing without making it about bettering someone else, I'm not sure they can ENJOY anything at all, properly speaking.           

Peter
« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 10:38:54 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Joe Hancock

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2008, 10:33:51 PM »
Peter,

The experience you speak of is important to me and likely everyone else here. But, for me, that type of golf experience has to be a rare thing for it to retain that level of specialness. I suppose that is a reflection of my social nature.

You have a way with words, my friend.

"Some people have a way with words, and other people not have way...I guess." - Steve Martin

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2008, 10:47:25 PM »
Thank you, Joe. But so do you; it's just that you're much more of a minimalist, which by the way I honestly believe is the better and more satisfying way with words.  (I've never been able to get there. I tend to be a big earth-mover; maybe it's that I haven't found that great site yet, or if I have haven't recognized it.)  And, you may be exactly right about the rarity of the experience being what makes it special....but I don't think we'll ever know for sure, given how pervasive the sense of competition is in all of us.

Peter 

Doug Ralston

Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2008, 10:58:38 PM »
I also have played golf alone, and very much enjoyed it. I prefer, however, playing with friends and enjoying it together.

On the other hand, I do not compete at golf. My days of competitive sports is past. So I do think I would have played golf gladly had it never been a competitive game.

Doug

RJ_Daley

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2008, 12:02:21 AM »
Quote
Would golf have developed the way it has without the element of human vs human competition? The GAME of golf almost certainly would not have, but for those (many fewer) men and women who found golf anyway and fell in love with it, the EXPERIENCE would be wholly undiminished, I think. And to be honest, I'm not sure anyone can even fully enjoy the GAME aright if he/she hasn't had or doesn't seek that EXPERIENCE, at least occasionally. If someone can't enjoy a thing without making it about bettering someone else, I'm not sure they can ENJOY anything at all, properly speaking. 

Peter, you certainly have described it well, and in terms I can relate to.  No, I agree the game wouldn't have developed as it has, but it would have still been a sport, not a game if the competition were taken out of it.  Just as hunting, trout fishing, and other hunter-gatherer pursuits led to sporting activity for humans.  I am thinking back to John Strawn's fine passages in "Driving the Green" where he speaks to the human subconscious harkening back to an ancient innate memory somewhere in the recesses of the brain, where once man hunted and gathered on the fields or plains for survival, but still in his modern circumstance invents or pursues sporting activity of a hunting, use of impliments target or goal oriented mentality. 

But, I don't think that without the gamesmanship competition mentality that the golf courses wouldn't have the purdy ponds and waterfalls and 13stimp greens.  Just a few rabbit holes to knock your ball or rock into with your stick.  ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2008, 06:57:42 AM »
Joe - what about human companionship?  Methinks that's the secret to 95% of the golf played around the world.

I played 9 holes last evening.  It was 46F when we three started - my wife, my friend (who's a student of Andy Plummer, by the way), and me.  We picked up a fourth on the 9th hole.  It was breezy and got down to 37F by the time we were done.  But it was beautiful out there - great light (the 'golden' hour) and signs of spring everywhere.

But it was perfect.  Great conversation, great fun, and good excercise. 

Where else are you going to get that?


TEPaul

Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2008, 08:07:48 AM »
Peter:

I think you pretty much answered the question in post #9 of what the game of golf is if not just with others. No wonder you and I have come to feel we might think some of the same thoughts about golf.

You asked the question if anyone on here has ever played golf alone. I sort of hesitate to admit it but when I think back over the last 38 years of playing a lot of golf I believe I've played more golf alone than I have with others and that includes about 35 years of a lot of competition in formal tournaments.

Playing alone is basically how I practiced for years. I'd hit some balls almost every day and then play alone for five holes or nine holes or sometimes more. Some of the most enjoyable memories of my life of golf is playing alone like that week in Mallow Ireland where I played alone every day at daybreak and then I'd be back before the rest of the family was even up. That week remains the most enchanting I've ever had in golf not the least reason being the nature of that little golf course in Mallow but I do need to understand and probably appreciate that I was always alone and what that might mean to me.

I guess it's never really occured to me until now how lucky I've been to have belonged to a golf club for so many years where one is so able to play alone easily if one wants to (one of the really attractive themes of GMGC is it's never crowded and that's become the reputation of the club and the reason it was started in the first place in 1916). After hitting balls playing alone on the course for however many holes was also some of my favorite times, on reflection. I guess in some way without anyone else around one might start to use one's imagination in interesting ways they may not if others were with them.

Golf also has those two very different formats---eg match play and stroke play and they really are so different from one another even in the context of human competition. What other game has two formats that are so different and are used so much? Probably no other game.

I'd never thought of it until this thread but in either match play competition or stroke play competition I believe I was so much more able than anyone else I know to just play my own game in either one without really concerning myself with what opponents or fellow competitors were doing. In that way human competition got to be more of a study in general percentages to me. In other words, I was so used to my game (from playing alone so much) and I felt pretty confident in knowing what I could do and probably would do but not reacting much to what others were doing probably made me observe better that most others, even good golfers, tend to beat themselves in little ways over a round or tournament, and in competition that was so much my feeling from observation I just sort of waited for it to happen and in most all cases it did.

I guess I must have become that way in competition in stroke play and even match play and it must have become the way I looked at golf because I did play alone so much.

But again, if one is inclined to play golf alone for whatever reasons, and you take out human companionship and human competition from the experience what do you have really but yourself, the golf course, and of course your imagination! In my opinion, imagination is a funny thing, and probably a very powerful thing, including in golf.

I'm not saying playing golf alone is the only thing or even a good thing, but it is an interesting way to go, in my opinion. It sure worked for me!  ;)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 08:26:10 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2008, 12:34:20 PM »
RJ - nice post; yes, I think just as trout fishing survives (if not flourishes) under modern circumstances, so would golf. And like you say, the fields of play would probably be a lot different, and a lot simpler.

TE - thanks for the insight/example of how your experience of the sport (alone) supported the playing of the game (in formalized competition).  Of the many gaps in my gca knowledge and experience, that may be the biggest one -- really understanding how a golf course and golf course architects can create a field of play that satisfies both the (gentle) demands of the experience seeker and the (rigourous) demands of formalized competition.

Peter   

Steve Lang

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2008, 01:32:59 PM »
 8)

Joe,

This year when ms sheila & i come up to michigan, we're going to find you somewhere between the ohio line and mackinaw city and play.. may have to check the salt levels at the Mines eh?  and if you're intersted in 80°F weather right now, come on down to Houston.. we'll show you what the dueling duality of the game of golf is..

s
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2008, 04:08:58 PM »
Great thread guys, and from the above I conclude that it’s the fact that the exact nature of golf, in all its forms, is unknowable, that explains why we are drawn to  it.

In the UK there is a new venture that seeks to

1 Enhance the social aspects or allow you to play alone, while hitting real golf balls to real targets.  (no Screens or launch monitors).
2 Test your shot making abilities with feedback (except its digitalised), just as you get on the course.
3 Its convenient and cheaper than a round of golf.

http://www.topgolf.co.uk/



They market it as an alternative to 10 pin bowling as fun night out.

It’s certainly a fun night out, but it isn’t golf.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Michael Whitaker

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2008, 04:49:44 PM »
I have a theory that golfers who prefer to play alone are serious masterbaters. Is this indeed the case?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Joe Hancock

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2008, 05:22:21 PM »
I have a theory that golfers who prefer to play alone are serious masterbaters. Is this indeed the case?

They told you if you did that you would go blind, but in reality it makes you a bad speller.

 ;D
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike McGuire

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2008, 05:41:04 PM »
edit: moved it to another thread
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 05:43:04 PM by Mike McGuire »

Michael Whitaker

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Re: What is the game of golf?
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2008, 07:33:33 PM »
I have a theory that golfers who prefer to play alone are serious masterbaters. Is this indeed the case?

They told you if you did that you would go blind, but in reality it makes you a bad speller.

 ;D

Sorry, it's an honest mistake... I'm just not that familiar with using the word!  ;D
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

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