Will Fescue Grow...

[Chip Gaskins]

South of Washington DC?

Does it go dormant in the Winter?

Can it withstand summer heat and humidity?

In soils that aren't predominately sand?

[Forrest Richardson]

It has to do with nightime temperatures, and largely the elevation about sea level.

For example, in Northern Arizona, Fescue is a great turf...as it is in Utah and other western states where the elevation supports cool season grasses. You will typically NOT see it below 3,000 feet in the transitional states.

[Jon Wiggett]

Chip,

1. don't know.

2. As with any grass it will go dormant below a certain temperature. With fescue this is around 10°C (50°F?) for the leaf growth although the root system will continue to develope even in frozen ground so long as it has sufficient oxygen.

3. It will also survive prolonged periods of heat. I have seen it maintain excellent playing conditions through 12 weeks of minimum 27°C (85°F?) to afternoon highs of 42°C (112°F) though it does go brown and has little growth. I don't know about the humidity but I would suspect it would not tolerate it.

4. As with all cool season grasses, it is dependent on the correct balance of moisture to air in the soil to have a healthy sward but it is not just sand based soils that have this. Sandy soils can drain too quickly but at the other end there are many good courses on moorland which have enough air in the soil despite being very wet.

[Chip Gaskins]

i suppose a follow on question would be, can you get blue grass, bermuda and other type of low altitude grasses to play firm and fast without doing what the USGA does every year (basically kill the course due to lack of water) to a course?

[Jon Wiggett]

Chip,

I can't say about bermuda as I have no experience but with most cool season grasses the secret to F&F is to keep the top 4 or 5 inches fairly dry and get the roots deep enough so they will still have enough moisture. This means deep general drainage if the ground is not free draining and lots of aeration of all parts of the playing area i.e, slitting and spiking.

[Joe Hancock]

Chip,

I don't mean this to be smug or smart-alecky, but I think you could stand some reading material beyond a few opinions here to get a fundamental understanding of how and why plants grow. I will try to come up with a link or two and paste them in here when I get time.

As for the USGA killing grass because of lack of water...well, that's probably false on many levels. For a simple example, have you ever played a golf course that lacks irrigation in the roughs? The grass goes dormant and turns brown during drought periods, but at the first significant rainfall the grass greens back up. Of course, when a high end tournament course losses grass, it's a much more complicated issue. That alone is probably a lesson to be learned.

Joe

[Chip Gaskins]

yes, i have played courses with brown dormant rough, maidstone is the first that come to mind.  many of the ones i have played in the UK have no irrigation at all and are all brown at times.

i have a stack of material sitting here beside me that i am reading, however asking the practitioners on this site often gives much better, pragmatic answers than a text book does.

pebble beach - 92, shinnecock - 04, winged foot - 06, i think there is certainly enough evidence to suggest that after the USGA gets a course for several months and deprives it from water the course suffers significantly after.  wonder why winged foot members said, thanks but no thanks for another open.  the members i talked to there certainly didn't say the next time it rained their greens were back to normal.

[TEPaul]

Chip:

Actually, Maidstone never had fairway irrigation. I think they were planning on installing it and they may have it now. Fishers Island and Newport also have no automatic fairway irrigation.

[Joe Hancock]

Chip,

Of all those tournament courses you listed, how many make it a normal part of maintenance to irrigate so there is never a brown blade of grass? Now, think about the UK courses and Maidstone and correlate the maintenance of those courses to their survivability during times of no irrigation.

The tournament courses only turn off the water during the week of play, and perhaps the week previous. They are not conditioned to survive drought, they are conditioned to survive irrigation. The big picture finger pointing can't be directed entirely at the USGA.

Joe

[wsmorrison]

Chip,

Of all those tournament courses you listed, how many make it a normal part of maintenance to irrigate so there is never a brown blade of grass? Now, think about the UK courses and Maidstone and correlate the maintenance of those courses to their survivability during times of no irrigation.

The tournament courses only turn off the water during the week of play, and perhaps the week previous. They are not conditioned to survive drought, they are conditioned to survive irrigation. The big picture finger pointing can't be directed entirely at the USGA.

Joe

If that isn't somewhere in the stack of material next to Chip, it ought to be. 

[Adam Clayman]

This misnomer of killing the grass because it goes a little brown has been debunked over and over again, So why is it so many still think they know best?

[Chip Gaskins]

sorry guys, all i was asking was....will fescue grow in the south.

i didn't want or mean to start a debate on brown grass being dead or dormant.  of course we all know that brown grass does not mean dead grass. point taken.

the thread changed direction why i mentioned the USGA.  with that said, i don't think the grass on shinnecock or pebble was brown because it was dormant or naturally that color, it was because it was dead, due to lack of water.  and that was the exact point/question i was trying to pose...will fescue live in the south and will it play firm and fast without letting it bake out like the USGA does.

[Cabell Ackerly]

South of Washington DC?

Does it go dormant in the Winter?

Can it withstand summer heat and humidity?

In soils that aren't predominately sand?

It grows just fine in my yard in Richmond, VA. It can get a little brown in July and August, but always comes right back in the fall.

[Adam Russell]

Chip- fescue grows in residential yards in Atlanta and Athens, GA - Zone 7b, If you get further South than that, it gets iffy. I can't think of any golf courses of the top of my head that use it because the stress of the temps in the summer and the amount of play. There may be one or two in mountains of GA. But if any courses use fescue, it will not play fast or firm, unless its dead There has been talk at UGA about the trial of a heat-resistant bluegrass for awhile, but nothing has become of it.

[Jon Wiggett]

Chip- fescue grows in residential yards in Atlanta and Athens, GA - Zone 7b, If you get further South than that, it gets iffy. I can't think of any golf courses of the top of my head that use it because the stress of the temps in the summer and the amount of play. There may be one or two in mountains of GA. But if any courses use fescue, it will not play fast or firm, unless its dead There has been talk at UGA about the trial of a heat-resistant bluegrass for awhile, but nothing has become of it.

Adam,

I can understand no course in the south USA having fescue because it doesn't retain the desired green colour that most golfers want but it should survive okay if the gound conditions are okay with very little water. You are spot on with the problem of too much play might kill it which can only be combated with large enough playing areas i.e. 1'000m2+ putting greens. Keep in mind that you will only be mowing maybe 2 a week during the hot period.

I am very puzzled by your comment 'But if any courses use fescue, it will not play fast or firm, unless its dead' why do you say this. Fescue will survive in a hot, arid climate no problem if it has the correct circumstances. I know because I've done it.

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm not an agronomist or super, but I've tried growing grass in the South for a long, long time.  Fescue is a clump grass with no runners, and it doesn't repair itself. 

And it doesn't just go dormant, it flat-out dies in the summer heat.  Fescue yards are typically reseeded in the South every fall, and I cannot imagine a fescue golf course in the south of VA, except a high altitude, and then it would still probably be bluegrass rather than fescue in place of the region-standard bermuda.

There are many courses here in GA with areas of fescue rough, but not the primary rough.  They are typically areas with little traffic, either foot or cart, and little play out of them, and they are allowed to grow freely instead of being frequently mown.

[Adam Clayman]

i don't think the grass on shinnecock or pebble was brown because it was dormant or naturally that color, it was because it was dead, due to lack of water. 

I'm confused, are you saying those grasses were dead?

If so you are dead wrong, unless, you end your sentence after the word think.

[Adam Russell]

Jon- I type too fast sometimes. I was just referring to courses in my area (GA, SC) trying to achieve fast and firm with our summer conditions. I know nothing about growing grass in other parts of the world.

[Joe Hancock]

I think there is now some confusion with the term "fescue". In the ool climate areas, we are usually speaking of fine fescues, such as creeping red fescue, chewings fescue, hard fescue, etc. In the South,such as Virginia and NC, the fescue used there is usually a tall fescue, or turf type tall fescue. The tall fescue is broad leafed, clump type and not generally good for anything on a golf course except the roughs.

The fine fescues are best adapted to cool and dry climates, albeit they do fine in the UK where it goes through damp periods as well. What fine fescue doesn't like is warm nights and high humidities, so I would not recommend it in the South at all.

Hope this helps,

Joe

[Chip Gaskins]

i don't think the grass on shinnecock or pebble was brown because it was dormant or naturally that color, it was because it was dead, due to lack of water. 

I'm confused, are you saying those grasses were dead?

If so you are dead wrong, unless, you end your sentence after the word think.

you are correct, i did not talk to the super at winged foot, pebble or shinnecock, nor was i personally there to see. 

all i was referring to were the many media reports (and Johnny Miller) stating the greens were dead. 

i did talk to a winged foot member that said their greens were in horrible condition after the open a few years ago.

here is one of many reports from a simple google search where players are saying the greens were dead, again i don't know, i wasn't actually there, but from the folks that played on them for a week it sounds like it to me: http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/usopen04/news/story?id=1825341

[Chip Gaskins]

I think there is now some confusion with the term "fescue". In the ool climate areas, we are usually speaking of fine fescues, such as creeping red fescue, chewings fescue, hard fescue, etc. In the South,such as Virginia and NC, the fescue used there is usually a tall fescue, or turf type tall fescue. The tall fescue is broad leafed, clump type and not generally good for anything on a golf course except the roughs.

The fine fescues are best adapted to cool and dry climates, albeit they do fine in the UK where it goes through damp periods as well. What fine fescue doesn't like is warm nights and high humidities, so I would not recommend it in the South at all.

Hope this helps,

Joe

thanks, that helps a lot.  however, i did think it got pretty hot in holyoke, co?

i know Mill Creek in Mebane, NC used to have heavy fescue rough and took it out because it cost too much to maintain in the summer, slowed down play, and was basically too hard for many of the golfers that played there.  i am 99% sure it was tall fescue.

bummer, there goes using fine fescue anywhere south of DC.

[Joe Hancock]

Chip,

It survives the heat pretty well when you take humidity out of the equation. Those 75-80 degree nights with 100% humidity in the SE are what does it in.

I know of one course in Columbus, OH that is all fine fescue other than tees and greens, but that's pushing the limits pretty hard, IMO.

Joe

[Adam Clayman]

Chip, Not one of those courses, Hoylake included, suffered dead grass. Johnny Miller along with the most of the media were and are wrong about those situations.

Grass is tough stuff and when it checks out dead, it is dead. Before it dies it goes dormant to protect itself. Only then, after continued abuse or lack of care will it die. Now, I know there are some strains that die quicker than others and each have different sets of circumstances that can cause death. 

Supers at these US OPEN Venues, and most places, know how far they can stress their grass.