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Mike_Cirba

Re: Andrew (Andra) Kirkaldy
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2008, 07:49:44 AM »
I've been asked to provide the following response.   Again I would simply reiterate that I have no horse in this race but am only trying to share historical info to provide a complete picture.

Thanks,
Mike


Melvyn
I'm disappointed ~ you seem to be suffering from selective memory.
During our exchange I provided a little more documentation than you now
 
claim, see below (if you would like, or anyone would like, a complete
transcript of our exchange you can get it from Ian Andrews or myself).

In my opinion its best to give credit where credit is due, be it Old
Tom Morris or James McKenna or Willie Campbell. Old Tom Morris was one
of the most important figures in the history of the game. He was
instrumental in the spread of the game at a very important time, laying
 
out golf courses in all corners of the UK.  He doesn't need to have his
 
architectural accomplishments exaggerated at the expense of men like
McKenna, John Sutherland, Archie Simpson, Benjamin Hall Blyth and
others.

Lahinch: Lahinch was established in 1892 ~ the guiding force was Mr.
Alexander Shaw.

* ‘Golf’ reported in July 1894, “Lahinch was discovered two years
 ago
and has been visited by TMorris who pronounced it the finest links in
the United Kingdom. TM and his daughter and granddaughter arrived at
Lahinch on the afternoon of the 29th of May. He went over the links and
 
offered suggestions on the lengthening of several holes, but on the
whole making no radical changes to the links, which was originally
projected by Captain AW Shaw and James McKenna.”

* February 1900 article in Golf Illustrated said the course at Lahinch
“was laid out by James McKenna.”

* From the Irish Times March 1, 1897, P McCarthy, General Manager,
Listowel and Ballybunion Railway said the links at Ballybunion were
‘quite first class and a sporting course, laid out by the
 professional
who had laid out the links at Lahinch and Dollymount.’ The Irish
golfers guide of 1897 names Ballybunion’s designer as James McKenna,
who did this work ‘at the instance of the Lartigue Railway
 Company.’

* From the Hermitage GC history: “Mr. James McKenna, then
 professional
at Carrickmines Golf Club in south County Dublin was commissioned to
construct the course. James McKenna came with excellent credentials as
a well-known Golf Architect of the day having been involved in the
lay-out and construction of such well known Clubs as Lahinch Golf
Links, the Links at old Ballybunion and Waterville, Co. Kerry and later
 
with the Killiney and Portmarnock Clubs.”

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Andrew (Andra) Kirkaldy
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2008, 09:04:14 AM »
Tom, I am not going to get into a debate with you on a site you are no longer involved with – I will just complete this reply.

Talk about being selective, you just chose to find a mule to post your comments as and when you want to – shame on you Mike, he is using you.

As for Lahinch, thanks, you just confirmed Old Tom changed the design, the report states that he changed the design. No Radical changes, yes, it was not a re-design, but modification were made. This is where you fall down, set ideas, no movement, your opinion and conclusion are the only ones.

Clearly Old Tom is credited with modifying the design, stated in the report you posted through Mike. But do you expect an old man in his mid 70’s to get his wheelbarrow and spade out to modify the course himself? Who undertook the actual labour is not mentioned but I would suggest that it was the Professional of Lahinch a MaKenna who with his team put the modification into place. Later on the work was rightly put down to McKenna who did the actual installation (not suggested the changes) but the reports whatever you say states in the language of the day that Old Tom offered suggestions and so was responsible for the modifications I see not evil, no plotting to screw McKenna reputation. But you are happy to say Old Tom was credited for something he did not do, yet the report is clear. It worries me if this is the standard of your research.

As for the other names you mentioned, it is again recorded that Old Tom was involved. You just don’t want to give Old Tom his due credit because in your opinion he does not deserve it. Let me be very, very clear, whilst you support others for Old Tom’s work, with questionable reports and interpretations, you are attacking the integrity of a relative of mine, not just a name from the past. I have always said that some stories need further investigating, and will happily accept the truth, but not you opinions which time after time are in themselves, worthless.

A question to all designers, when Jack Nicklaus is credited with a design in these days does that mean that he actually did all the layout then went out and constructed the course? Has he worked with others to achieve the final result? Well, Old Tom actually did the design work, walked the course, returned to see progress and then again to set the positions of the bunkers months after the course opened. But he did not do the labouring. Did he work with McKenna, John Sutherland, Archie Simpson, Benjamin Hall Blyth and others, just read the reports. Make up your own minds, but don’t fall for opinions, they are just that opinions. As for Lahinch you decide what you think may have happened – I know what happened, I have no axe to grind, no reputations to tarnish, no need to prove my point as I am not forcing it down the throat of others.

Tom, no more, I will not answer you again, I have no wish to continue any form of debate or correspondence with you. I just seek the truth whatever it is and will accept it  unlike you, who just wants to prove that you are right. Go and play your mind games elsewhere.

Mike, please do not pass on any further message from MacWood to me.
By posting his messages you are involved and responsible for the content of his post - I suggest caution, but then that's my opinion.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Andrew (Andra) Kirkaldy
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2008, 07:05:00 PM »
Ranfurly Castle:  a couple of years ago, I received the exact same info that Melvyn posted. 

For the new holes, the club picks the design of their captain (Robson), over Colt's two proposed designs . 

But after that decision, the construction and design of the (Robson?) holes was carried out by H S Colt.

Which seems a bit contradictory....? 
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mike_Cirba

Re: Andrew (Andra) Kirkaldy
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2008, 09:31:08 PM »
I'm a "mule"?    ::)

Melvyn,

I thought we had a very pleasant, respectful exchange of private messages.

Why the public posturing? 

I don't understand why this stuff is not debatable?   I went back and re-read this entire thread and unless there is some prior undertone which I was never privy to, I haven't the slightest idea what anyone wrote (including Tom) to give offense in any way.

In fact at one point, Tom MacWood wrote me asking for your email because he wanted to send you a personal, private apololgy over a point you made that he had not fully understood prior.

I don't know if your version is correct or his, but I think airing and reading differences of opinion is healthy.   Let the readers decide for themselves!

You're right, I'm done here, but I don't know that I learned a damn thing, frankly.

And that's too bad.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Andrew (Andra) Kirkaldy
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2008, 10:39:41 PM »
Mike

My reference to a mule relates to an innocent person carrying contraband on behalf of another person. Perhaps the terminology is slightly different in the States. No disrespect was intended. The comment was posted before our e-mails, so I presumed you had read it.

As for a debate, I thought I had explained my reasons on GCA. I will not waste my time with a closed mind – nothing more nothing less. To prove the point you posted for MacWood the following UNTRUE statements ‘and Melvin Morrow suggested Foulis or Morris may have invented the use of plasticine models on that project .Those stories are both incorrect’. ‘He was in charge of the caddies, and also did some club-making. He was 16 years old’.

MacWood was wrong regards Plasticine models and Foulis age when he was at  Renfurly, not me.  I said that I had to respond because my name was connected to an incorrect statement. This is classic MacWood and I’m not interested in a debate when someone can’t even be bothered to check the basic details.   

You gave Tom my e-mail address without asking me. I never pass on an address or telephone number without checking first

I am going to consider the matter over the week-end, but I feel that resigning form GCA may resolve harmony to the site. 

Mike_Cirba

Re: Andrew (Andra) Kirkaldy
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2008, 11:05:44 PM »
Melvyn,

If you think Harmony normally reigns here, perhaps you haven't been here long enough!  ;)

I'd ask that you please stick around...too many people get their sensitivities bruised far too easily and I'm sure if we all met in person over a pint we'd get along famously.

Tom asked me for your address as he said he wanted to apologize to you personally for misunderstanding a few of your statements.   I felt he was sincere and still do, but by the time I got back to him additional things had been posted and feelings got hurt..

I'm sorry this turned out badly.   

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Andrew (Andra) Kirkaldy
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2008, 09:25:10 AM »
James

Answer to you question from Clive Cummings.
The following is copied from his e-mail:-

“Dear Melvyn
 
The village of Bridge of Weir originally has one golf course in 1889.  This was known as Ranfurly Castle Golf Club due to it having the "castle".
 
A spilt came about due to the ground rental and a new course was built a thousand yards up the road in 1903.  They took the name with them "Ranfurly Castle Golf Club".  This left the original course to be re-named "The Old Course Ranfurly".
 
Therefore Robert Foulis would have been at Ranfurly Castle around the 1894 date, now known as the Old Course Ranfurly.
 
The question I would raise is would he be old enough to be designing golf courses in 1894?
 
Hope this helps.”


Trust that this is what you are after - Melvyn

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Andrew (Andra) Kirkaldy
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2008, 10:36:53 AM »
Melvyn,  thanks again for verifying with Clive Cumming that the Old Course is indeed the older of the two courses.   -JM



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