"Overall, I'd guess that the average...

[Sean_A]

...English golf course sets the standard worldwide."

This is one line that for me, always stood out in the Confidential Guide.  Do folks think this is an accurate statement?  Why or why not?

Ciao

[John Moore II]

I suppose it depends on what standard we are talking about. I suppose many clubs in England are generally more natural than average American clubs. If naturalism is the standard, than I might say yes, its accurate. But if the standard is what defines great architecture, than I'm not sure.

[Peter Pallotta]

I wanted to bring this back up.

I don't know Tom's book except by reputation, but if average can mean what most courses offer as a bare minimum I thnk I'd agree, judging from the pictures that you post Sean...the minimum being courses that simply and elegantly fit the land, offer playability and pleasure and strategic interest to a wide range of golfers, and work agronomically (draining well and being easy/inexpensive to maintain).  I think we might serve ourselves and the game better if we expanded our ideas about what makes a great golf course....expanded by limiting our needs/expectations to this "bare minimum" I mean.

Is that asking too much, or too little?

Peter
   

[Mark_F]

I suppose it depends upon what your standard is.

Is there an English course or two in the top 20 or 30 worldwide? Note: Birkdale doesn't count because it's crap. So there's only Sandwich.

England has a wonderful variety of courses, with a very long and strong second and third tier's.

The Poms don't get caught up in all the fancy gimmickry and expense, and are particularly adept at the excellent 6400 yard and under course that is all you could,or should, want.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sean, I'm not quite sure what that quote means.  I have played some 80 courses in England.  I have played all kinds of tiers form top to the bottom.  I love links and heathland golf.  The US has few links courses and no heathland.  Beyond that the US still has a greater variety of courses than England.  The US is deeper. But it should be we have 16000 courses. 

[Sean_A]

I am unsure of what the quote means myself - that is why I brought it up.  The statement seems innocent enough, but I don't think it really is - of course I could be wrong. 

Peter, perhaps Tom had your sentiments in mind when he made the statement. 

Tommy - Yes, I agree that golf in the States is deeper than England though I am not sure there is more variety - just different.  However, it is amazing that England could even be compared with the States in terms of most aspects dealing with golf AND come out not looking so bad.  Perhaps this is what Tom meant.  Its the word "average" that may be throwing us a bit.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

What Peter said.

I meant that the average golf course in England is superior to the average golf course anywhere else.  Yes there are no 10's on the Doak scale, and only a couple of 9's, but there are a higher percentage of 5's and 6's than anywhere else, based on my fairly large sampling ... and all of those courses that Sean and Paul Turner and Mark Rowlinson have profiled here seem to have reinforced my point.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sean, when I mentioned variety I was referring to the variety of terrain:  desert, Rocky Mts, South Carolina Lowlands, Florida swamp, Washington's Jurassic Parklike Sahalee etc, and differing grasses, Bermuda, Bent, Blue Grass. 

What I miss the most is Heathland.  Next to links golf it is my favorite.  In the US we have nothing like Beau Desert or Sunnindale, which may be my favorite club in the world.

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean, when I mentioned variety I was referring to the variety of terrain:  desert, Rocky Mts, South Carolina Lowlands, Florida swamp, Washington's Jurassic Parklike Sahalee etc, and differing grasses, Bermuda, Bent, Blue Grass. 

What I miss the most is Heathland.  Next to links golf it is my favorite.  In the US we have nothing like Beau Desert or Sunnindale, which may be my favorite club in the world.

Tommy,

does differing terrain automatically make for differing architecture . IMO if the 17th at Sawgrass has is taken to the Arizona dessert and the water replaced by sand wastes it still presents the same problem to the golfer and so although the look has changed the GCA has not.

[Jason McNamara]

does differing terrain automatically make for differing architecture . IMO if the 17th at Sawgrass has is taken to the Arizona dessert and the water replaced by sand wastes it still presents the same problem to the golfer and so although the look has changed the GCA has not.

Jon, I think there's a substantial difference - you wouldn't see so many average hacks carding double-digit scores (and facing a knee-knocker half-wedge after splashing the first).  For the average golfer who misses that green in Arizona, it's wedge it on from the desert and make 4.

[Tommy Williamsen]

   j