Paging George Bahto, Brad Klein & Tom Doak - A question about OM

[Patrick_Mucci]

Can you tell us about the Biarritz hole ?

Photos would also help.

Thanks

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

There is no photo of the Biarritz green, because the greens mix was halfway on it while we were walking around, and the tee was still being cut to final grade.  Maybe next month.

Many here on the web site probably know already that the Biarritz is my least favorite of Macdonald's "template" par-3's and it pained me a bit to have to include it in the mix at Old Macdonald.  To make matters worse, in our first routings we hadn't found a good natural location for the hole -- I commented to Jim Urbina in January that I felt like we were trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

But, the very next day, I was out with Mr. Keiser and we were discussing the possibility of relocating the seventh green so it would have an ocean view.  We agreed that we should do that, but the tee for the former eighth hole (the Cape) was well away from the new green site, and we both thought it would be better to have the tee on the dune as well -- so we both looked out and saw an attractive site for a green.  And when I got down there to look at it, I realized that we had been looking at the front half of a Biarritz!  So now that is the par-3 eighth hole, and we'll have three par-3 holes on the front nine as a result of inserting it into the routing.

I won't describe this Biarritz green in every detail, but it will be among the wildest I've ever seen.  The tee shot is a bit downhill (not as much as when we started, because we had to lower the seventh green and eighth tee), and the front of the green and the sides are guarded not by the parallel bunkers (the feature I detest) but by natural ridges and valleys which will make for their own difficult recovery shots.

I am confident that it will be one of the most talked-about holes on the golf course, and it's one of the best examples so far of our approach to the golf course -- using the same concepts as Macdonald for inspiration but not being afraid to deviate widely from the "plasticine models" that some seem to expect us to build.

And that's all I will say for now.  Go back to discussing somebody else's work.  The green should be grassed in late April and playable by the fall of this year, although we are hoping they keep people off (with certain exceptions ) until the spring of 2009.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Thanks for the info.

Will all three tiers be putting surface ?

[Norbert P]

 "The Word"

This garden universe vibrates complete.
Some we get a sound so sweet.
Vibrations reach on up to become light,
And then thru gamma, out of sight.
Between the eyes and ears there lay,
The sounds of colour and the light of a sigh.
And to hear the sun, what a thing to believe.
But it's all around if we could but perceive.
To know ultra-violet, infra-red and X-rays,
Beauty to find in so many ways.
Two notes of the chord, that's our full scope.
But to reach the chord is our life's hope.
And to name the chord is important to some.
So they give it a word, and the word is OM.

The Moody Blues
In Search of the Lost Chord

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Yes, it's putting surface from the steep rise at the front, through the swale to the back.  There will be as many hole locations in the front as the back, and that part reminds me a bit of the ninth at Yale because of the good natural defense at the front.  We did not make the swale big enough for hole locations -- I did that once years ago, at Black Forest, but Macdonald never did that so I didn't this time.

[Matthew Hunt]

Whats the tee yardages going be?

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:

The tee wasn't finished when I left, but I think it's going to be a little bit shorter than the Biarritz model ... maybe 210 or 215 yards to the middle of the back half of the green, but only 165 yards to the front edge.  Behind the tee there is a drop-off to the ocean, so we really couldn't go any further back.  The hole plays almost due east, so it will be in a left-to-right crosswind on most summer days.

[Phil Benedict]

The issue with a Biarritz is making the front tier of the green interesting enough so that there isn't a letdown when the pin isn't on the far side of the swale.  Every time I've played a Biarritz with the pin in the front I've been disappointed, maybe because I don't get to play them very often.  At Fox Chapel they told me they have the pin in the back 80% of the time.

[Tom_Doak]

Phil:

I agree with what you said ... that's why on many of Macdonald's Biarritz holes, they didn't maintain the front half of the form as green.  The hole at Yale was the only Biarritz with a cool front section, until we get ours finished.

[Bill Gayne]

I played Cavalier, Banks course in Virginia Beach, a couple of weeks ago and the pin was upfront. I never saw the original but what's there now Lester George did a great job making it interesting. Small narrow bunker on the left and all kinds of undulation center and right of the green that was cut tight. Unfortunately, I can't find a good picture.

Does any body know if Forsgate has restored their biarritz? When I was there about three years ago I heard that it was in the plans but I never found out if the work was actually completed.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom I tend to agree with you on this. I am thrilled you feel you have broken the code on this type of green complex. The biaritz I play the most is Mountain Lake which is very good. When they let the area in front of the green remain firm then it is a thrill to play no matter where the pin is located. It plays anywhere from an 7 iron to 3 wood depending on pin location and wind.

[Jim Nugent]

I wonder if the front tier will have some contours and slopes to it.  That would make front pins more interesting, and also stand it out from other Biarritz greens I've seen in person or in pictures. 

[George_Bahto]

Jim: I think you will find the front section of this hole will have more movement than any other Biarritz and probably have as much movement as anyone could ask for - - and certainly much more than any I could have imagined!

I have never been a fan of "front-section" pin placements for a number of reasons -  although it works at Yale - mainly because, as we have recently uncovered, there was never the Macdonald/Raynor intention that the putting surface should encompass the entire dual area. This came to light a months or so ago.

however ..................

Given the movement of the front section I saw last week in the finished sub-grade of the Old Macdonald version green cavity, where the deft Mr. Hepner was applying his D-4 (5) dozer-genius, pin placements on this section will be very interesting to say the least.

[Jeff Doerr]

"The Word"

This garden universe vibrates complete.
Some we get a sound so sweet.
Vibrations reach on up to become light,
And then thru gamma, out of sight.
Between the eyes and ears there lay,
The sounds of colour and the light of a sigh.
And to hear the sun, what a thing to believe.
But it's all around if we could but perceive.
To know ultra-violet, infra-red and X-rays,
Beauty to find in so many ways.
Two notes of the chord, that's our full scope.
But to reach the chord is our life's hope.
And to name the chord is important to some.
So they give it a word, and the word is OM.

The Moody Blues
In Search of the Lost Chord

Very good connect...

Considering those involved, that knowledge of CBM, the knowledge of Bandon Dunes that exists on this board, and the purpose of the board, --- this course and these threads are a kind of OM for us!

[Jeff Doerr]

Question for all:

I believe it was 16 that was scratched for the new 8th - does the new 15th green site move to the previous site for 16, or farther north on the site?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak, George Bahto & Brad Klein,

It would seem that distance alone is the biggest impediment golfers face with the hole location on the back tier, and that shots hit on the green but short of the back tier, while faced with difficult putts, don't face high scores.

It would also seem that golfers tend to underclub, and that, combined with a front tier hole location, coupled with gnarly conditions short of the green, could lead to some high scores.

Yale is a good example.
With a front tier hole location, especially one close to the front of the green, the universal temptation on the part of the great majority of golfers is to hit it between the front of green and the hole.  Underclubbing and mis-hits would seem to send those golfers on a difficult errand, one that results in high scores.  It's a rare golfer who plays long of the hole.

Presenting a similar configuration, absent the water, would seem to serve the same wonderful purpose.

Deceiving the golfer is one of an architects missions.
That task is sometimes thwarted by tee elevation above the green.
What's the differential between tee and green on this hole and on the "short" ?

Did you make any adjustments in the configuration of the green and surrounds for the prevailing left to right wind ?

[Tom_Doak]

From my first post:

"And that's all I will say for now.  Go back to discussing somebody else's work.  The green should be grassed in late April and playable by the fall of this year, although we are hoping they keep people off (with certain exceptions Wink ) until the spring of 2009."

Sorry, Pat, I've got other things to keep me busy this week.