[Mike Mosely]

I was trying to do a little comparative analysis for a friend over the weekend and she asked "Well what golf courses are like Augusta National?"

She's pretty bright so I didn't want to just give her the old "well there's no course like Augusta National." I thought about mentioning Sage valley, but she wouldn't have a frame of reference for that. 

So I said that there were elements of St. Andrews.  As I thought about it, are there also similarities to carnoustie?  I mean each course has a defining water hazard that wanders dangerously around the golf course.  Both courses test all facets of the game.  You need to be long, straight, putt well, and have a diverse short game.

Does anyone else see this similarity?  What other courses do you think bear an architectural resemblance to Augusta?

[Chip Gaskins]

peachtree in atlanta.

palmetto in akien

[Dan Herrmann]

Mike - pre or post Fazio renovations?

[Mike Mosely]

OK...I'll bite.  Chip, why and how are they similar?  Can you think of any other courses that have had some exposure so she might have a frame of reference.  If I tell her its like Peachtree or Palmetto she'll say "huh?"  Moreover, I don't even know anything about Peachtree and Palmetto, so I can't even tell her WHY they are similar.

What other courses were Jones, Clifford and Mackenzie trying to emulate?

Dan...PRE!  Nice to see you on a thread:)

[Chip Gaskins]

OK...I'll bite.  Chip, why and how are they similar?  Can you think of any other courses that have had some exposure so she might have a frame of reference.  If I tell her its like Peachtree or Palmetto she'll say "huh?"  Moreover, I don't even know anything about Peachtree and Palmetto, so I can't even tell her WHY they are similar.

What other courses were Jones, Clifford and Mackenzie trying to emulate?

Dan...PRE!  Nice to see you on a thread:)

they all have very similar terrain and vegetation

they all have tall skinny pine trees

they all have large yawning bunkers with bright white sand and perfectly sharp edges (not as sharp at palmetto)

they all have long flat tee boxes that drop down into a valley (and landing area) then goes back uphill to a green site. 

many holes at peachtree and augusta do this:

think #9, #6, #15, etc at ANGC, they are very similar to peachtree #2, #4, #11, etc

- tee shot at #2 peachtree looks a lot like #10 at augusta (except reversed)
- peachtree #4 looks amazing like augusta #12 (minus the creek)
- peachtree #11 looks similar to augusta #6 (except not as severe downhill)

it has been a while since i played palmetto so i can't remember all the hole numbers.  i remember a lot of the holes looked the same as down the road expect much less manicured (or perfect looking) and i have heard the bunkers are much better now, much more rustic looking.

[CJ Carder]

Several of the holes at ANGC have short game elements that remind me of things I've seen at Pinehurst #2, Dornoch, and as you already mentioned, St. Andrews.  The short-game options around 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 11, 14, and 17 all bear resemblance to things you'd see on those courses.  Obviously the weather conditions and the American style of golf do not allow ANGC to be played like Dornoch or TOC, but if I'm trying to compare different aspects of courses, those are a few that pop up first in my mind.

Though I've never been there, and thus don't know enough to compare individual design features, you'd have to toss Cypress Point into the discussion as well.  If I recall correctly, Bobby Jones first discussed ANGC with Mackenzie at Cypress while it's construction was in progress.  

My last thought though is that you're dead on with The Old Course as Mackenzie and Jones both had a particularly strong affinity for The Old Course and the fact that much of its beauty was because it just looked as if it had always been there.

[Mike Mosely]

That's true CJ...I had forgotten about that even though it's in "The Making of the Masters."  nice catch there.

[CJ Carder]

That's true CJ...I had forgotten about that even though it's in "The Making of the Masters."  nice catch there.

No problem, though I admit, I happen to have a copy of Curt Sampson's Masters book sitting right here next to me that my dad just returned to me this morning.  It was a pretty easy lookup.   

Still, your topic hits a sweet spot for me.  I do find it amazing and a little awe-inspiring to read things about ANGC's history and it's creation, development, and the underlying business plan that got it started.  Even though the club struggled a little financially pre-tournament and in the tournament's early days, it really was destined for success from the beginning.

[jeffwarne]

Augusta CC-Jones was a frequent guest there both before and after ANGC
Wide open off the tee,Large pines,bermuda/rye fairways (when they overseed), fast tiered greens
both courses having changed significantly over the years

Muirfield Village-certainly ANGC had a strong influence on Nicklaus

[Robert Kimball]

I played Cuscowilla once with one of the assistant pros who also played Augusta. He thought the two were very similar -- especially the greens and surrounds.

"Lots of moundings and shaved banks to turn any amateur's lob wedge into either a bowl of chili or a screaming 2-foot-high missle over the green!!" he said.

[Kyle Henderson]

There are countless imitators, even if the resemblance isn't as striking as it should be in many cases. I think it is presentation and conditioning of Augusta that has the most influence on other courses.

What percentage of country club members don't seek fast and true greens, immaculate emerald fairways and crystal blue (dyed that color at ANGC) water features?

As ANGC is narrowed with the planting of mature pines and thicker rough, more and more of the regular tour stops resemble it... Or is it the other way around?

[J_ Crisham]

When i think of Peachtree I think risk /reward. #2 is a reachable par 5 but a big number can be had as well similar to 13 at ANGC. The 4th is a par 3 that looks similar to 12 at ANGC. The cathedral pines,pine straw, large bunkers with white sand can look very familiar if you have been 120 miles east. The opening tee shot at Peachtree is perhaps the best on the course. Great elevation changes and very quick,true greens. Peachtree is all it's billed to be.

[KBanks]

Nothwithstanding their similarities, in recent years Peachtree and ANGC have gone in opposite directions with regard to trees. As previously documented here, Augusta keeps adding them, while Peachtree removed significant numbers in their recent renovation.

As to this particular issue, you'd have to say Peachtree has acted more in accordance with "original intent".

Ken

[Bill Gayne]

Kinloch is an imperfect comparison with fairway width, greens kept at and designed for high speeds, rolling terrain that I believe in both cases is clay based, and for the most part a walkable routing (although at Kinloch they do provide a cart for a short ride between nine and ten). At both places the conditioning is really over the top.

[J_ Crisham]

Nothwithstanding their similarities, in recent years Peachtree and ANGC have gone in opposite directions with regard to trees. As previously documented here, Augusta keeps adding them, while Peachtree removed significant numbers in their recent renovation.

As to this particular issue, you'd have to say Peachtree has acted more in accordance with "original intent".

Ken

Ken , I agree with your discription of Peachtrees tree removal plan-it looks wonderful as a result .ANGC has added trees to defend the score of par. Simply a competitive decision. The bermuda rough at Peachtree was all I needed to keep my score honest.

[Chris Cupit]

they all have very similar terrain and vegetation

they all have tall skinny pine trees

they all have large yawning bunkers with bright white sand and perfectly sharp edges (not as sharp at palmetto)

they all have long flat tee boxes that drop down into a valley (and landing area) then goes back uphill to a green site. 

many holes at peachtree and augusta do this:

think #9, #6, #15, etc at ANGC, they are very similar to peachtree #2, #4, #11, etc

- tee shot at #2 peachtree looks a lot like #10 at augusta (except reversed)
- peachtree #4 looks amazing like augusta #12 (minus the creek)
- peachtree #11 looks similar to augusta #6 (except not as severe downhill)

[/quote]

Chip,

Just curious but have you played both courses?  No big deal if you haven't I was just curious if the similarities you describe are visual or how the holes played for you.

Also, Peachtree has removed A LOT of trees such that I'd never describe the tee shot on #2 at Peachtree as being remotely similar to #10 at ANGC.  Maybe pre tree removal but certainly not now.

 Peachtree #4 does definitely remind one of its cousin in Augusta!

But, #11 at Peachtree, with the 75 yard long single tee box, plays uphill and well over 200 yards, (220 I think)--easily a 2, 3 or 4 iron while #6 at Augusta plays way downhill and at 190 many players can hit 5 and 6 irons pretty easily.  Both greens are tiered back to front although the back right slope at Peachtree is more of a constant steady slope whereas the back right shelf at Augusta is definiteley a distinct "shelf".

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip,

Just curious but have you played both courses?  No big deal if you haven't I was just curious if the similarities you describe are visual or how the holes played for you.

Also, Peachtree has removed A LOT of trees such that I'd never describe the tee shot on #2 at Peachtree as being remotely similar to #10 at ANGC.  Maybe pre tree removal but certainly not now.

 Peachtree #4 does definitely remind one of its cousin in Augusta!

But, #11 at Peachtree, with the 75 yard long single tee box, plays uphill and well over 200 yards, (220 I think)--easily a 2, 3 or 4 iron while #6 at Augusta plays way downhill and at 190 many players can hit 5 and 6 irons pretty easily.  Both greens are tiered back to front although the back right slope at Peachtree is more of a constant steady slope whereas the back right shelf at Augusta is definiteley a distinct "shelf".
[/quote]

I have played both.

Peachtree 2002

Augusta 2007

I have not seen/played Peachtree since the tree removal.

Like I said in my post, Peachtree #11 is not downhill like Augusta #6, but visually they just "looked" similar to me even if (like you said) played much different.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle Henderson,

While ANGC has been narrowed, I wouldn't describe it as a narrow golf course.

I could see how some could draw similarities between PH # 2 and ANGC.

[Chris Cupit]

I have played both.

Peachtree 2002

Augusta 2007

I have not seen/played Peachtree since the tree removal.

Like I said in my post, Peachtree #11 is not downhill like Augusta #6, but visually they just "looked" similar to me even if (like you said) played much different.
[/quote]

Check out Peachtree again--you'll love the changes.  

I've posted elsewhere about the feeling I get at PGC of playing a lot of uphill shots.  Did you get that same feeling?

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle Henderson,

While ANGC has been narrowed, I wouldn't describe it as a narrow golf course.

Nor would/did I. 

[Bill Satterfield]

How about The Golf Club of Georgia (Lakeside)?  I know there are several PGA Tour guys that play there in preparation of heading to Augusta due to the similar conditioning on the greens.  Both courses are heavily treed, groomed, elevation changes, etc.

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