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Mike_Cirba

Mackenzie's prize-winning Lido hole reborn?
« on: July 07, 2002, 05:55:48 PM »
...on a municipal track in south Jersey??

Hard to believe, but at the suggestion of Brad Klein, architect Stephen Kay decided to add a replica of the original on what is the 7th hole of McCullough's Emerald Golf Links, in Egg Harbor, NJ.

The course, whose other holes are all replicas of holes from the Old Country, was built over a landfill and I've provided a full report on another thread ("To replicate or not to replicate?").

Mackenzie's hole plays to 464 yards, par four, although it can play as "short" as 390 yards along the most direct, daring line.  At its widest point, the fairway stretches 159 yards, end to end.  It also plays into the prevailing wind, which can be considerable on the open site near the ocean.  

Conceptually, there are three distinct avenues for the tee shot.  The longest and safest route is out to the right, where the hole effectively becomes a dogleg left, and given the minefield of bunkers once encounters on the second shot from that angle, effectively becomes at least a par 4 and a half.

There is also an island of fairway in the midst of a HUGE waste bunker  that one can try to play to (estimate is 180 yard carry, and a 250 yard drive would go through it), or one can take the most daring route attempting to carry all of the sand (approximately a 275 yard carry).  

The green sits appropriately elevated, and is guarded by a bunker on the right side.  A drive to the more difficult left leaves the best angle of approach.  The green is also rather undulating, with OB not far behind.  

I played from the tips, and I have to admit that I think this hole is going to confuse the hell out of golfers.  From the tee, one can see the distant green, but there is nary a clue about where to go, or what your options might be.  Similar in a way to St. Andrews, one can make out very little due to the recessed tee area that seems to be a little below the elevation of the rest of the hole.  So, for the golfer, one can see high grasses waving in the wind, some fairway out to the right, some fairway somewhere left, but little to distinguish the features in any way.  I suspect most will determine that it's a crapshoot their first time playing, and end up going directly for the hole, whether they meant to be daring or not.  

Personally, I LOVED this type of confusing lack of visibility.  I just doubt that others who grew up with "target golf" will be so equally enthused.  Perhaps at some point the course will provide yardage books, etc., with precise point to point distances in full color, but for my taste, I preferred to play it with a little less information and a LOT more adventure!

If nothing else, the hole is uncompromising to the modern game and expectations.  Perhaps an architect less concerned with authenticity would have built a very elevated tee, or attempted to create more "definition" in the fairway(s), but this hole as it exists today is ruggedly surreal and seemingly unconcerned with what anyone else thinks about it.  

Bravo!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Mackenzie's prize-winning Lido hole reborn?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2002, 06:20:56 PM »
http://www.mcculloughsgolf.com/billycasper/courses/view.asp?id=70&page=883

  Is it reborn if it never was built in the first place?  This is terrific.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Mackenzie's prize-winning Lido hole reborn?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2002, 08:52:28 PM »
Tommy N.;

Believe it or not, you would love it!  

Slag;

I recall George Bahto mentioning that a version of that hole was used at the original Lido course, although not along the ocean as Mackenzie envisioned.  From the hole drawings I've seen in Dan Wexler's "Missing Links" book, I think it might have been a somewhat loose interpretation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Mackenzie's prize-winning Lido hole reborn?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2002, 09:29:14 PM »
Mike Cirba:

Would you recommend this course over The Architects Course?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's prize-winning Lido hole reborn?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2002, 09:40:29 PM »
You know the hardest thing in golf design is filling up a dead flat site. So we were out there looking at this massive field and after the suggestion arose Steve Kay really worked hard to make it work.

I understand the Lido version of MacKenzie's hole was the 18th and did not have all of the tee shot options originally conceived. The version at McCullough's Emerald Links is, I believe, truer to the original intent of the award-winning sketch.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Mackenzie's prize-winning Lido hole reborn?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2002, 05:31:38 AM »
Tim;

Good question.  Although both courses are in NJ, they are probably over 100 miles apart, so it's not as though someone "in the neighborhood" would get to pick and choose.

The Architects Club is better conditioned, but I felt let down by the compromises Kay made, particularly around the greens, where the classic architects really shone.  As a semi-private, I'm sure it will keep it's edge in conditioning over the municipal Emerald Links.

On the other hand, Emerald's highs are higher and lows are lower.  It's a much more adventurous golf course, and not nearly as straight-forward.  It's probably also more fun.

However, for anyone travelling to NJ, I can think of a number of courses I'd recommend before these two.  It's just that if anyone is "in the neighborhood" of either of them (say, under 60 miles), they are worth seeing.

However, in South Jersey, I'd suggest you get to Twisted Dune first.  It's a Doak 7 in my book, meaning that if you are within 100 miles you should go and see it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Mackenzie's prize-winning Lido hole reborn?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2002, 07:20:15 AM »
Mike Cirba:

Thanks.  I think I'm a bit more intriqued by the Emerald Links and may well check it out in early August.  In the meantime, I'm off to the real "emerald links", Ballybunion, for a holiday.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Mackenzie's prize-winning Lido hole reborn?
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2002, 06:11:46 PM »
I had the pleasure in playing McCullough's Emerald Golf Links the other day and saw firsthand the hole in question -- the replica of Mackenzie's prize-winning Lido hole.

Mike is quite correct in his assessment. The tee shot requires a good deal of knowledge -- how far you can carry and what target line you decide to play must be completely from memory. It does add a lot of gusto in my mind. Too many muni courses are so drab and plain Jane that little ever of imagination is involved. That is not the case here.

I am sure some architectural guru will quibble with some arcane aspect that might be completely accurate, but I enjoyed the hole.

When I played the wind was dead calm. I nailed a tee shot over the deepest point of the carry and had left about 95 yards. Would like to know how far the ball plays on a direct route. Important thing to remember -- there is a neatly placed fairway bunker out in that area for those who get a bit "frisky."

I was kind of confused with the option for the separate fairway. Hitting that target does require skill and good bit of luck. It's no more than 50 yards long and 30 yards across. From the back tee you have no real idea on where it is. Until you develop a real sense of feel it's not an easy play. Strong players are better served by letting it rip and seeing if they carry the short route.

The green is nicely framed by a series of bunkers but if a player takes the longer route it is still possible to get to the green. The route is partially blocked by a bunker but it's more of mental roadblock then an actual strategic one. Once the player gets by the bunkers it is possible to run the ball all the way onto the green.

The putting surface is also contoured appropriately and it's best to gauge your distance accurately.

There's more to the golf course than this hole and I'll be posting some other comments on a few of the other wonderful holes you find.

The Lido hole is winning effort because it finds its place on a municipal course just outside Atlantic City. Kudos to Stephen Kay and the input from Brad Klein.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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