A question on the history of golf course rankings

[TEPaul]

I'm not a big fan of golf course rankings, never have been, but I'd like to ask those familiar with the subject and a fan of it a question.

The question is--------Which golf course would you say has probably been the top ranked (#1) course in this nation (USA) or in the world the most or the longest?

I suppose, for obvious reasons, the significant magazines and periodicals on golf over the years would be the appropriate source material. I'm pretty sure many on here know which they are and when. Use any or as many of them as you like.

Thanks

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

There wasn't a #1 ranking in any of the magazines until GOLF Magazine did it in 1983.  GOLF DIGEST adopted the same in 1985 or 87.

Muirfield was #1 in the 1983 list for GOLF Magazine.  Pine Valley has been #1 every time since then.

GOLF DIGEST's #1 spot has jumped around quite a bit, I believe.

[Bart Bradley]

It begs the question, then, Tom:

What is your number 1?

Bart

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Thank you. I am aware that one of the two most prominent U.S. golf magazines to do ranking lists began to do it under the title "The 200 hardest or toughest golf course in the world" which in and of itself is a pretty interesting and significant criteria to begin something like this, don't you think?  

I can't remember which one it was but I'm very confident you'd know.

[TEPaul]

"It begs the question, then, Tom:
What is your number 1?
Bart"



Bart:

That is an answer no one will ever get outta me. Temptation, torture, I don't care, I'm never going to say or perhaps ever really consider and some of it has to do precisely with why I don't really like ranking golf courses, at least not in the way it's mostly been done. I guess somewhere in the deepest reaches of my mind (which probably isn't very deep) I feel that what I might think is the greatest 100 or 200 examples of the best architecture or courses in the world have just not been treated right or treated well by most of the most significant golf magazine or periodical lists over the years.

But I am only one person and I do believe strongly in what I call "The Big World" theory, don't you know? Unfortunately, I suppose, I also happen to believe in P.T. Barnum's or W.C. Field's adage---"A sucker is born every minute."   

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
I think GD has had PV at the top for every year but two, since 1985.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Guys I'm pretty sure this is a lot older than 1983

e.g.

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses
 

however I also think it predates American magazine's. There was one about he turn of the century no?


Certainly on this side of the water it's the tradition to put The Old Course at he top until fairly recently.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I think GD has had PV at the top for every year but two, since 1985."

Jim:

Thanks. I suspected PV was on top a lot but I didn't know it was that much. I'm showing how little I know about rankings but is the GD list always been national or world or both?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
I don't know about all the various categories, I'm sure someone else is more familiar with the whole process than I am.

PV stuck out because of its longevity at the top. Of course, maybe TD has it correct and I might have confused the two mags,  but I do think it's as I said.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Pine Valley has been the perennial top of the heap of all the major ratings for decades, but recent years have seen a decline in both Golf Digest and GolfWeek, as GD has had Pebble Beach?!? and last year, Augusta National?!?!? ahead of PV, while in recent years Cypress Point has overtaken Pine Valley in the Golfweek Classic listing.

I've heard some mention that the slight fall may be due to the continued trees-in-bunkers situation, as well as the modern practice of over-manicuring the formerly sandy waste areas, but couldn't tell you for sure.

[Adam Clayman]

Mike, Access has to a factor too. Would you agree?

TePaul.
 Golf Mag has historically been a global list. GD and GW have been National. However last year GW expanded their lists to include Mexico and the Caribbean. This year and  from now on will also have an international list, if I'm not mistaken.

[Thomas McQuillan]

Tom:

There wasn't a #1 ranking in any of the magazines until GOLF Magazine did it in 1983.  GOLF DIGEST adopted the same in 1985 or 87.

Muirfield was #1 in the 1983 list for GOLF Magazine.  Pine Valley has been #1 every time since then.

GOLF DIGEST's #1 spot has jumped around quite a bit, I believe.

I think there was a list done in 1936 or around that time. It could be the same list as the tom macwood link but i'm not bothered checking. If you go to www.top100golf.blogspot.com you can find the list under a post called 'the original top 100 list' or something along the same lines. Again, I'm short on time so I'm not bothered checking but if your willing to look around you'll find it. On a slightly different topic, there are some excellent course profiles on the site.

[archie_struthers]

 


I think you could make a valid argument that Pine Valley is hard to beat architecturally , and it has been ranked # 1 an inordinate amount of times perhaps for this very reason but to say that one course is the best in the world is quite ridiuculoous.  

It's just too subjective ...it"s like asking who the bst looking girl in the world is  , a question that has no answer.

[Thomas McQuillan]

I think you could make a valid argument that Pine Valley is hard to beat architecturally , and it has been ranked # 1 an inordinate amount of times perhaps for this very reason but to say that one course is the best in the world is quite ridiuculoous. 

It's just too subjective ...it"s like asking who the bst looking girl in the workd is  , a question that has no answer.

Angelina Jolie no question.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,

I guess I remembered correctly. Here's the list of GD winners, from the start of their rankings to the present.
Pine Valley has been on the top of the heap every year but two.

   Pine Valley G.C., Pine Valley, N.J.
George Crump & H.S. Colt, 1918.
Remodeled by Hugh Wilson & Alan Wilson, 1921.
Remodeled by William S. Flynn & Howard Toomey, 1929.
Remodeled by Perry Maxwell, 1933.
Remodeled by Tom Fazio, 1989 & 2003.
Ranked for all 43 years.
America's 200 Toughest Courses (1966)
America's 200 Toughest Courses (1967-1968)
America's 100 Most Testing Courses (1969-1970) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Tests of Golf (1971-1972) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Tests of Golf (1973-1974) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1975-1976) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1977-1978) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1979-1980) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1981-1982) - First 10
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1983-1984) - First 10
_____________________________________________________
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1985-1986) - First 10 - No. 1
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1987-1988) - First 10 - No. 1
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1989-1990) - First 10 - No. 1
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1991-1992) - First 10 - No. 1
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1993-1994) - First 10 - No. 1
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1995-1996) - First 10 - No. 1
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1997-1998) - First 10 - No. 1
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (1999-2000) - First 10 - No. 1
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2001-2002) - First 10 - No. 2 (Pebble Beach was No. 1)
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2003-2004) - First 10 - No. 1
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2005-2006) - First 10 - No. 1
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2007-2008) - First 10 - No. 1
.................and.No. 2 in  '09/10, it got edged out by ANGC

[TEPaul]

Jim:

Thank you very much for that, very interesting and even though it doesn't surprise I didn't realize PV was quite that dominant. You are some kind of researcher on just about anything; do you know that?

By the way, you should be the one to contact GD and tell them they have their architectural attributions a bit off, at least some of the dates and probably the Wilson brothers too---at least on the architecture----agronomic maintenance contribution is another story. We will back you up with that with whatever you need to prove it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Thanks for the compliment, but I just have a toe stuck in where others have been seriously swimming for a long time.

I'm not going to tell GD they're off on their attributions, what if they say "Oh yeah boy, then tell us when the DA was built", I'd be
s_ _t out of luck.   

[Bill Gayne]

Link to a 1939 list. Interesting to see Havanna CC and Foulpointe. Surprised to see Lido #41. Always read on this website that Lido was one of CBMs great courses.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22878.0/

[Jim_Kennedy]

Link to a 1939 list. Interesting to see Havanna CC and Foulpointe. Surprised to see Lido #41. Always read on this website that Lido was one of CBMs great courses.

.......but 18th in the US