Brain Teaser - Modern Golf Course Architects

[CHrisB]

Below are 4 groups of modern golf course architects, with no architect appearing in more than one group. Can you figure out what the 4 categories are?

Questions to follow once the answer is figured out.

Category 1
Pete Dye
Tom Fazio
Robert Trent Jones
Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
Jack Nicklaus

Category 1a
John Fought & Bob Cupp
Michael Hurdzan & Dana Fry

Category 2
Arnold Palmer
Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw
Jay Morrish
Tom Weiskopf
Rees Jones
Greg Norman
Ron Prichard
Bobby Weed
Robert von Hagge & Bruce Devlin

Category 3
Tom Doak
Jim Engh
Mike DeVries
Steve Smyers
Mike Strantz
Gil Hanse
Keith Foster
Baxter Spann
Lester George
Ken Dye
Dave Axland & Dan Proctor

[CHrisB]

Hint: The make-up of two of the categories has changed with recent announcements.

[Steve Verde]

Category 1 has all architects who have designed major championships venues or will host one in the future.

[Ed Oden]

1 - Designers of courses that have or will hold a major championship or other USGA event.

1a - Co-Designers of courses that have or will hold a major championship or other USGA event.

2.  Designers of courses that have held a PGA Tour event.

3.  Designers whose courses have never held any of 1, 1a or 2.

[CHrisB]

Steve,
You are right on Category 1.

Ed,
You're close on Categories 1 and 2, and right on Categories 3 and 4.

Here are the categories with some questions below.

Category 1--Designers of Courses who have hosted or will host a Professional Major
Pete Dye
Tom Fazio
Robert Trent Jones
Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
Jack Nicklaus

Category 1a--Designers of Courses who have hosted or will host the U.S. Amateur
John Fought & Bob Cupp
Michael Hurdzan & Dana Fry

Category 2--Designers of Courses who currently host or have hosted a PGA Tour event
Arnold Palmer
Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw
Jay Morrish
Tom Weiskopf
Rees Jones
Greg Norman
Ron Prichard
Bobby Weed
Robert von Hagge & Bruce Devlin

Category 3--Designers whose courses have never hosted a Professional Major, U.S. Am, or PGA Tour event (but who have designed courses good enough to make the Golfweek Modern Top 100)
Tom Doak
Jim Engh
Mike DeVries
Steve Smyers
Mike Strantz
Gil Hanse
Keith Foster
Baxter Spann
Lester George
Ken Dye
Dave Axland & Dan Proctor
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My first observation is that Category 3 is a very talented group of golf course architects, and I'm sure many on this board would take them over the architects in all of the other categories combined!

My questions are: Does (or should) it bother any of the architects in Category 3 that none of their designs has been used as a venue for the biggest championships and/or the best players in the world? (And no, Tom Doak, the Curtis Cup does not qualify! ) Is this a hole in their careers? Do they even care?

Are golf course architects competitive in that way? Am I the only one that can imagine any of these architects reacting with envy at the news of RTJ Jr's Chambers Bay getting the U.S. Open or Hurdzan/Fry's Erin Hills getting the U.S. Am?

Doesn't every architect have a hidden desire to see how well one of his designs would hold up against the best in the world?

[Ed Oden]

Chris, the lawyer in me would like to point out that my answers are technically correct.  Then again, I would have also been technically correct if I had answered "People who breath" to all catagories.

As to your question about whether those in #3 should be bothered by the lack of tournament play, I would emphatically say no.  The true assessment of a course is whether it works for the membership (in the case of a private club) or its customers (in the case of a public course).  If it is also capable of challenging the pros, that is fine.  But that is an ancillary achievement and misses the point if it is the primary goal.  Is Sand Hills (which I have never played) any lesser of a course because it is not tournament tested?  I think not.

Ed

[CHrisB]

As to your question about whether those in #3 should be bothered by the lack of tournament play, I would emphatically say no.  The true assessment of a course is whether it works for the membership (in the case of a private club) or its customers (in the case of a public course).  If it is also capable of challenging the pros, that is fine.  But that is an ancillary achievement and misses the point if it is the primary goal.  Is Sand Hills (which I have never played) any lesser of a course because it is not tournament tested?  I think not.

Ed,
I agree with your comments regarding individual courses but I suppose my questions have more to do with an architect's entire body of work. For example, if Tom Doak or any of the other architects in Category 3 ends his career without any of his designs ever hosting an important championship, will he (or we) consider that a hole in his body of work, or that he missed out somehow? Surely he'd love to see what would happen if a PGA Championship were played at Pacific Dunes for example, wouldn't he (hoping for wind, of course!)? Surely he or the others would relish an opportunity to create a golf course specifically for championship play? Maybe not. But it's a competitive business with competitive, creative people, and I just wonder how important this sort of thing is to them (and us).

Personally, I would be very interested to see what a Doak or C&C or Hanse or Strantz or Spann or Engh U.S. Open/PGA/U.S. Am course would look and play like. Hopefully it will happen for some of them (but again, do they want it to?).

[Dieter Jones]

Would some one like Tom Doak really want to see the USGA bastardise one of his courses so they could play the Open there? I doubt it. I'm tryin to imagine the one course of his I have played (Barnbougle) with 20 yard wide fairways 

[Ed Oden]

Ed,
I agree with your comments regarding individual courses but I suppose my questions have more to do with an architect's entire body of work. For example, if Tom Doak or any of the other architects in Category 3 ends his career without any of his designs ever hosting an important championship, will he (or we) consider that a hole in his body of work, or that he missed out somehow? Surely he'd love to see what would happen if a PGA Championship were played at Pacific Dunes for example, wouldn't he (hoping for wind, of course!)? Surely he or the others would relish an opportunity to create a golf course specifically for championship play? Maybe not. But it's a competitive business with competitive, creative people, and I just wonder how important this sort of thing is to them (and us).

Chris:

I would again say no.  Seems to me that holding significant events used to be a key component in bulding a legacy since that was the first or only exposure most people had to certain courses/architects.  But in today's world with so much information readily available and buzz regularly preceeding the finished product, a course/architect no longer needs a championship to bring it/him to prominence.  The fact that Doak, C&C, et al are held in such high regard without having designed courses that have held major tournaments seems to answer the question for you.  In fact, isn't that part of their allure?  They don't NEED championships to cement their legacy.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't WANT the opportunity to display their work on the world stage.

Ed

[David Druzisky]

Add the virtue of time to the dynamic of the question.

There are endless post discussing the greatness of the work by all the golden age architects and their designs that are being played upon for the majors.  The architects in cat 3 are often compored to them.

[Tom_Doak]

Chris / Dieter / Ed:

It doesn't really matter a lot to me whether my courses host professional events or not.  Some architects base their whole value system on it; to me it's more of a footnote [although we did have a lot of fun following the Curtis Cup].

Of course, that would change if I took some jobs where the client really had the goal of hosting a major championship.  To date, only one of my clients has ever suggested this as a goal, and it was about fourth on their list.  More recently, Stonewall and Sebonack have talked about putting in new tees to make a bid for a USGA championship, we'll see what happens there.  Neither one is thinking about the U.S. Open, though.

Hosting a Tour event is entirely different; that's about who sponsors the event  and where they want it.  That was a goal of The Renaissance Club, and I would bet they'll have an event in a few years' time because they know the right people.

By the way:  I didn't recognize the answer to the way the architects were grouped, perhaps a sign that it's not important to me.

[Lester George]

Chris,

I may be coming off of category 4 soon.  Watch your radar. 

I had a friend ask me last year when one of my courses would hold a tour event.  The way he asked sounded like it would be "validation" of my work. 

I am sure I have never gone into a project with that in mind, although I am sure that some owners do. 

I have renovated courses that held USGA and Tour events (Starmount Forest - GGO, CCV - US Am, Hershey - PGA)  just to think of a few.  But it certainly not that important to me.  Yes, it may bring attention to the club or me, but I really get satisfaction out of completing the work and providing the best experience for the members/players. 

Lester

[Adam Clayman]

Considering the respect those who decide venues have had for GCA, and it's historical significance, the answer would be No to whether it matters.
 Perhaps now that the USGA is getting their act together on an archive, shows a shift in their mindset, leading to respect. Time will tell.

[Philippe Binette]

sorry to ask but

which Tom Fazio course hosted a major?

[CHrisB]

Philippe,

Fazio designed the course at PGA National where Larry Nelson won the 1987 PGA Championship. I believe Nicklaus has since come in and done a redesign.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Which Hurdzan/Fry course will host the U.S. am? Hamilton Farms?

EDIT: My bad forgot they did Erin Hills.

http://www.golfbusinesswire.com/releases/126310/

Side Note: They also almost had the Accenture Match Play at Calusa Pines. (Or so it was said.)

[Philippe Binette]

Well, you guys can't blame me for forgetting the 1987 PGA won by Larry Nelson...