Shaving at 14

[Matt_Cohn]

On air yesterday the announcers talked about shaving the bank behind #14 at Torrey Pines, which leads into a canyon/LWH.

Seems like overkill to me. Rees was in the booth and nearly melted with glee when he suggested that players could always just aim at the middle of the green.

Whoever commented a few months back that, in nature, grass actually grows thick and lush near water - not short and tight - has had me thinking for months.

[Tom_Doak]

I think those shaved banks down to the water are terrible, whether at Augusta or Torrey Pines or Valderrama or anywhere else.  They did it behind a green at Southern Hills in the last PGA and I wanted to puke.

[J Sadowsky]

I think those shaved banks down to the water are terrible, whether at Augusta or Torrey Pines or Valderrama or anywhere else.  They did it behind a green at Southern Hills in the last PGA and I wanted to puke.

C'mon, tell us what you really think

I don't mind it - it seems like you should be penalized by water in other ways than flying the ball there.  If Bethpage was "ruined" by narrowing the fairways and thus making the bunkers only in play on the fly, why is it different with water features?

[Tom_Doak]

Justin:

Shaving the banks of water hazards is just ridiculously contrived and unnatural.  It's also dangerous for the maintenance workers.

On top of that, it just looks like a desperate ploy to make the course more penal to make up for a lack of real challenge in the course.

[John Mayhugh]

The shaved banks just do not seem like real golf to me.  It's not something that could be easily maintained so really they are just tricking the course up to increase the challenge or interest.  Of course, take away the ocean and Torrey isn't that interesting, so maybe that's the reason.

[PThomas]

so does that make the 12th at Augusta a bad hole??

[John Moore II]

Eamon-no more comments like that please, some people have their kids look at this board. And I personally, while I do understand the humor, don't like it in this setting either.
As far as cutting down the banks, I have nothing against it as long as it does not put any person in danger. If the bank is steep, then do not cut it down, but if the bank is shallow, then cutting is fine. As far as the one as Torrey, I seem to remember that one as being a steep bank, so maybe don't cut it short. But really, is it anymore dangerous to cut the bank short with a fairway or green mower than it is to cut the bank with a rough cut mower?

[Brian_Ewen]

Shaving the banks of water hazards is just ridiculously contrived and unnatural.  

Is "unnatural" not a strange word to use ?

Is it anymore unnatural than the shaved green ?

[Pete_Pittock]

Trainwreck to shave this bank. Your two dropped balls will both go into the hazard. Your ball likely won't stay still hen you place it, so you'll waste time trying to find a point where it will come to rest. If it does stay at rest for a while there is a good likelihood it may move again, causing a one stroke penalty (hazard relief or player caused) and you are back at square B.
The net difference between shaving or leaving it alone will probably be very small for the field.

And for your shaving pleasure here is a great OT thread started by Tommy Naccarato. Still trying to find the six-track.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=16537;start=msg287544#msg287544

[Sean_A]

Justin:

Shaving the banks of water hazards is just ridiculously contrived and unnatural.  It's also dangerous for the maintenance workers.

On top of that, it just looks like a desperate ploy to make the course more penal to make up for a lack of real challenge in the course.

Tom

I don't see the difference from shaving water banks as shaving a bank which takes the ball further from the green.  Additionally, I would argue that a shaved bank is trying to achieve the same thing as a gathering bunker which is fed by short grass.  How bout a stream in a fairway which is fed by short grass?  Does TOC sound familiar?  There are countless examples and I think good ones at that.  Part of the concept of creating width and maintaining f&f conditions is that a ball can end up worse than if there was rough or god forbid one of those awful bunkers next to water to save a ball from its rightful doom.  Finally, there is nothing worse than not knowing if a ball is in the hazard.  Having all sorts of crap around often results in time wasted in searching and most likely having to call a lost ball penalty on myself because I can't be sure the ball is in the hazard.  

Of course, as always, there are exceptions which make sense.

Ciao

   

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

Okay, if all of the greens at Torrey Pines had short grass all the way around the back, then I wouldn't object.  But to do it just behind ONE green so a strong approach shot will go into a water hazard is still contrived, in my opinion.

[Philippe Binette]

The thing is, when the bank was built to be a short grass one (often not as steep and not a regular than those at Torrey Pines) it's OK to keep it short.

But at Torrey Pines or some other course where they start shaving banks after seeing Pinehurst no 2, those banks weren't meant to be shaved, it's just a silly solution that doesn't fit with the concept.

The way Rees built his banks, the transition from flat to banks, is so sharp that they might scalp the grass doing it

[JohnH]

As long as we're all throwing out opinion regarding Torrey Pines, I have never been a fan of this course.  I was surprised when it was announced it would host a US Open.  The water hazard in front of 18 looks contrived, unnatural, among other things, and I'm not a fan of the bunkering.

Someone mentioned Augusta.  They can get away with it because it is consistant with the rest of the course - everywhere the banks are shaved.  Shaving the bank on 14 at Torrey would serve what purpose other than to protect par?  To me a US Open course is chosen because it is a true test of golf on its own merits and par is a good score anyway without the fake, contrived look.

[Brian_Ewen]

Shaving the banks of water hazards is just ridiculously contrived and unnatural.  It's also dangerous for the maintenance workers.

Okay , second time around , why is it dangerous for the maintenance workers ? .

Surely if a bank is too steep , its too steep , no matter what length the grass is ?

I admit on this subject , I have never been the same since Tigers bitching's over Valderamma's 17th .

[Matt Vandelac]

I'm not a fan of it from a player's perspective because it's a blind hazard and the shaving enhances the likelihood of getting jabbed.  I never bought into the "it's only blind once" deal, either, btw.  There are great architects out there that make attempt to put everything in front of you (even show the pins from the tees) so you have a good idea what kind of peril to expect (Pete Dye, Bobby Weed).  For me it's like playing a bunker shot with a tree in the way.  I lose a bunch of respect for the place when faced with that one.  I'm o.k with unkempt bunkers, but have a problem with decorative grass and spreading Junipers (ala Kingsley Club) and things growing in bunkers that are in play as well.

[Tom_Doak]

Brian Ewen:  Sorry I ignored your question from before.

Shaved banks near ponds are more dangerous for the maintenance crew because if a mower slips on the bank, it doesn't just go to the bottom of the slope, it goes into the pond; and it's pretty easy to get injured that way.  And you've got to mow the fairway a lot more often than the rough.

[Tom Huckaby]

Someone please tell me I am not the only one who saw this Topic Title and thought of the massive hulk kids their own kids play sports games against, or something like that.

My son who's 9 plays against plenty of kids who look like they should be shaving....

[David_Elvins]

Tom,

I thought it was another Michell Wie thread.

[Sean Leary]

Someone please tell me I am not the only one who saw this Topic Title and thought of the massive hulk kids their own kids play sports games against, or something like that.

My son who's 9 plays against plenty of kids who look like they should be shaving....

Me too . Actually I was thinking it might be about Pieracci...He HAD to have the ability to grow a full beard by 14.

[Brock Peyer]

My first inclination was to respond to this post was:  "No, I didn't start shaving until 15," but then I read past the title.

I don't like the idea either, that would seem out of place in the US Open, especially at this venue where the shaved banks have never really played a roll.  There would sure be a stink if someone putted or chipped into the valley or veranka (sp?) or whatever it is.  Now, unlike Tom D., I don't mind it at Augusta where I think that it part of the manicuredness of the course but I don't think that the bank was designed as a hazard, whereas I think that at Valderamma, the bank was designed as a shaved hazard...that may be clear as mud but those are my thoughts.

[JohnV]

If a bank is shaved, isn't that really the same as having the water hazard right there.  If you wouldn't have a problem with a water hazard that far off the back of the green, then why is it a problem to shave the bank?

Perhaps it would be better to leave it that way all the time, but for the everyday golfer it would be much tougher than it is for a US Open.

The area behind the 14th green is not filled with water and the player may be able to play his ball from there whereas he can't from the water in front of 12 or 15 at Augusta.

I haven't heard if the USGA intends to play the canyons as water hazards or through the green.  The PGA Tour has gone back and forth with that over the years.

[Norbert P]

On air yesterday the announcers talked about shaving the bank behind #14 at Torrey Pines. . .

(. . . had me thinking for months. )  (?)

The real important shaving goes on down below (perhaps a pun?) Torrey Pines at Black's Beach.

Dave E., too funny . . . ever think of a career in Stand Up ?