Time based rate

[Brad Huff]

First off...  I'm a newbie here.  I've been lurking for some time now, but this is my first post.

I'm a high school golf coach here in Dallas.  My home course is Indian Creek which is a Jeff Brauer redesign.  The GM and I are having a discussion the other day about pace of play.  He had an idea to have the rate of the round be based on the time it took to play.  Faster rate = less cash.  The obvious problem is if you get stuck behind someone.  Throwing this out to the masses...is there any way this can work?  or at least a hybrid version?

Your thoughts?

BH

[Matt_Cohn]

There's a real logistical problem with asking people to pay *after* they play, especially if they're unhappy with pace-of-play and don't want to pay the full rate. Talk about customer service issues in the golf shop!

What about fast groups getting stuck behind a single slow group that's 20 or 30 minutes behind?

Declined credit cards or cash shortages create issues, too.

How about the 30 or 40 golfers who all come in at dark, at exactly the same time? That would be quite a line in the pro shop.

What about players who leave partway through a round, or just bolt from #18 green?

Do you change the rate on days where the pace will be slower - cart path only, bad weather, tougher setup, etc.

Does it create an ulterior motive for golf courses to actually make their courses play slower?

What might work is charging a standard green fee and handing out pro shop credit to groups who come back to the pro shop within ___ hours of their tee times. But again, there are customer service issues. What if the group comes in one minute late? Five minutes? It sets up the pro shop guys to look like jerks.


PS, welcome to the site    

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Brad,

Welcome to the site!!

There was a thread on this last summer sometime and it lasted several pages.  The search feature on this site is pretty basic so might have a hard time finding it.  

If I remember right it came down to lack of masrhalling and sticking tee times too close togeether as the main culprits for slow play.  Your idea was mentioned, but as you know if you get stuck behind some well-to-do group who don't care about paying the extra money, then that would cause some big problems.  As an alternative it was suggested that if you finished in less than 4 hours, you got some amount of refund depending on how much under the time you came in.

In my experience a Marshall who is on the ball and isn't afraid to gently ruffle a few feathers is the best way to keep things moving.  Education on pace of play also would be a great way to go, but not sure exactly how that would be implemented on a functional level.

Kalen

[D_Malley]

here was a similar idea i stumbled on the other day.  i have changed the names to protect the inocent.


 
Fast-Play Wednesdays are no time to be messing around at ABC Golf Club. That is, if the golfers want the carrot dangling from the end of the fast-play stick. For on Wednesdays, all golfers completing their rounds in four hours or less receive their choice of a $5 cash refund on that day’s green fee or a free beverage of their choice.

As a result, The Head Golf Professional estimates a 15-percent increase in play on Wednesdays at the 18-hole public facility in California, where brisk business carries double meaning.

“The success rate is 99 percent,” The staff says. “It’s traditionally been our slowest day but business has picked up because people want to play faster.”

To help them achieve that goal, the golfers are given a stamped scorecard with their tee time as well as a pace card before their round. The pace card provides the recommended time-span for each hole along with 21 helpful hints such as: Novices use front tees, carry spare ball in pocket and take fewer practice swings. The pace cards also carry the motto: “At ABC Golf Club, we’re keepin’ pace, not keepin’ score.”

The course marshal, who wears a Black-and-white striped referee shirt on Fast-Play Wednesdays, uses flags to let the golfers know how they’re doing – green means ahead of pace, yellow means on pace and red, behind pace. When the round is over, the golfer take his or her scorecard into the golf show to be stamped again with the finish time and to see if a reward is in order.

“Pace of play is a very big issue for us,” says the pro who credits the course superintendent with coming up with the idea last year for speeding up play. “Part of the benefit is a public facility trying to educate and teach golfers how to play faster.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I think with the reward for finishing on time and a marshall on the course there could be a lot more communication between the players about getting in on time.
They would police themselves eventually - keep each other in line.
You would need a good marshall to keep it all civil.

Even one minute late does not get the reward.
Just like a ball that trickled into the lake or spun out of the cup.
The golfer can take a bad beat.

Have it be a mystery prize every once in a while.
Make it an event.
Publicize the special events.

Have a graduated reward.
Have a tournament where the fastest finisher sets a record and plays for free.
One of those running tournaments... strokes + time = final score.  They can run 7 miles in one hour.

Downington in the Philly area had a good program - Eric Pevoto worked there early in his career.

Cheers

[Mike Nuzzo]

Racetrack,
I like the use of yellow as a sign of just barely making it as opposed to the traditional response of being under the limit so it must be ok.

I hope the list of suggestions mentions the "shivas" cut out your f....ing pre-shot routine.

Cheers

[Michael Dugger]

The only time pace of play is a problem is when you are use to playing faster than the group in front of you.

Whatever happened to just good old fashioned marshalling?  

It's obvious what group is dragging ass.  

This whole issue has become ridiculous.  I've been at places where we got an earful for playing in 4:15.  Then the next day I'll return and be stuck behind some old geezers to the tune of a 5 hr round.

Not a marshall in sight.  

A time based rate will never fly.  NEVER.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I don't think a time based rate would work - however I like the idea of incentives to promote faster play.

How about an early morning period for the golfers who just have time for a quickie - assuming they are familiar with the course. Let's call it "Fast track".

Golfers playing "Fast Track" will get a reduced green fee if they're Green Fee players or free cup of coffee if they're members. Of course the real incentive is for the players themselves getting their golf quickie.

However to get the reduction one has to sign up to the following.

1. Match Play scoring (not stroke play)
2. Only 1/2 set of clubs which must be carried.
3. No practise swings
4. No discussion of strategy when you are "on the ball"
5. Immediate "provisonal ball" if first ball suspect.
6. Only the player looks for his "lost ball" and it's limited to 3 minutes.
7. No distance consulting (eye-ball it)
8. No lining up of putts in 2 directions
9. All putts under 1 yard are conceded
10. No lighting up cigars on the green
11. No score card marking on the green
12. No anecdotes on the tee
13. No peeing in the bushes

I could go on - but I'll probably run out of takers

[Joe Hancock]

I don't think a time based rate would work - however I like the idea of incentives to promote faster play.

How about an early morning period for the golfers who just have time for a quickie - assuming they are familiar with the course. Let's call it "Fast track".

Golfers playing "Fast Track" will get a reduced green fee if they're Green Fee players or free cup of coffee if they're members. Of course the real incentive is for the players themselves getting their golf quickie.

However to get the reduction one has to sign up to the following.

1. Match Play scoring (not stroke play)
2. Only 1/2 set of clubs which must be carried.
3. No practise swings
4. No discussion of strategy when you are "on the ball"
5. Immediate "provisonal ball" if first ball suspect.
6. Only the player looks for his "lost ball" and it's limited to 3 minutes.
7. No distance consulting (eye-ball it)
8. No lining up of putts in 2 directions
9. All putts under 1 yard are conceded
10. No lighting up cigars on the green
11. No score card marking on the green
12. No anecdotes on the tee
13. No peeing in the bushes

I could go on - but I'll probably run out of takers

I'm with you up until item #13....I'd tell you why, but I have to go pee......

[ward peyronnin]

In a previous thread last year someone mentioned that the most dramatic method to speed up slow play was a " stinger two iron to the back of the head" but i think the great benefit to Mr. Georg'e systm is that it sounds like it makes that day fun for folks which is what it is all about anyway; not necessarily how fast you can play.

[Jason Connor]

Because I can only play as fast as the group in front of my, these sorts of incentives are hard to implement. Especially at a busy public course.

But it seems to be that 3 or 4 well educated marshalls solve all problems.  

Likewise teaching people how to use golf carts would solve many.  That may sound silly, but I work from home and live on a par 4 (a private club) and I see it every day out  my home office window.

I'll see cart partners hit even drives on opposite sides of the fairway.  One will drive up to his ball, get his distance, go through his preshot routine, and execute his shot while the other sits in the cart.  Then he gets back in and drives all 15 yards to the other guy's ball who does the same.  What should have been 10-20 seconds in between golf shots is now 90 seconds.  

I'm sure this happens at public courses just as often.

A diplomatic marshall could gently explain how they could shave 90 seconds off that exchange.  90 seconds * 18 holes: Suddenly a 4:30 round is 4:03.

Ball marking is another thing. When another person in my foursome putts, I'm usually ready to putt immediately.  I tell my playing partners I'd rather them not mark their balls unless it's in my way.  In a foursome, you can easily shave 2 minutes per hole off by not marking every putt (sure put a coin down and rotate your ball once you're ready to putt to use your cheater line) but walking up to your ball via serpentine paths around your playing partners lines immediately after you putt takes a long time.  2 minutes per hole: you've saved 36 minutes.

And the last one: Watch where you and your partners hit.  I was once playing with my old boss and I was finding his ball all day long.  Finally he said to me "Do you have really good eyes, or are you good at finding balls because you're tall."  I said "First let me say I'm not being a smart ass with my answer.  I watch, mark, and remember where they go."

So many people, especially in carts, start looking for their balls in the rough 20 yards past where they went. Then work backwards.  

There are obviously many other examples.  Many people are just never taught to play efficiently.  

Perhaps a better incentive would be a "Fast Wednesdays" or whatever.  And marshalls observing people with "good fast play practices" course given them discount coupons, etc.  If fast play Wednesdays became super popular, you could even limit tee times to players who've earn "Good practice" vouchers on others days of the week.




 

[D_Malley]

Eliminate The Honor System
This enabled a club to reduce its average round by 45 minutes – from four hours, 15 minutes to three hours, 30 minutes. No matter who was low scorer on the previous hole, the first player who reaches the tee, hits. That eliminates a lot of waiting around. No one waits until it is his turn to swing (according to whose ball is farthest from the green) either. When a player is ready to hit and the way to the green is clear, he hits.

 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't think a time based rate would work - however I like the idea of incentives to promote faster play.

How about an early morning period for the golfers who just have time for a quickie - assuming they are familiar with the course. Let's call it "Fast track".

Golfers playing "Fast Track" will get a reduced green fee if they're Green Fee players or free cup of coffee if they're members. Of course the real incentive is for the players themselves getting their golf quickie.

However to get the reduction one has to sign up to the following.

1. Match Play scoring (not stroke play)
2. Only 1/2 set of clubs which must be carried.
3. No practise swings
4. No discussion of strategy when you are "on the ball"
5. Immediate "provisonal ball" if first ball suspect.
6. Only the player looks for his "lost ball" and it's limited to 3 minutes.
7. No distance consulting (eye-ball it)
8. No lining up of putts in 2 directions
9. All putts under 1 yard are conceded
10. No lighting up cigars on the green
11. No score card marking on the green
12. No anecdotes on the tee
13. No peeing in the bushes

I could go on - but I'll probably run out of takers

I'm with you up until item #13....I'd tell you why, but I have to go pee......

Joe,

Are you saying that rule 13 should really by "The number 1 rule?"

And what would you put as the "Number 2 rule?"

[Lou_Duran]

How many rounds do each of the courses do annually?  50,000+?  Many rounds and a more heterogenous clientele will equal longer rounds.  Add the wild, angry greens Mr. Brauer built during this period of his design career, the mounding which can kick the ball to very inhospitable places, and the black gumbo (cotton) soil, and a 4.5 to 5 hour round is probably as good as it can get.  I don't know what percentage of players ride carts, but I suspect it is in the 60%-70% range, which may suggest that an economic incentive (to play fast) won't have much of an impact on speed.

BTW, someone could make good money by coming up with a solvent to get the muck of golf shoes.  As much as I liked the original Creek course, I stopped going there because of slow play and how sloppy it was to golf there.

BTW2, any new stories on Lou?  

[Brad Huff]

Some great ideas!  I'm going to show this thread to the GM.  He's a creative guy with a knack for making money for the course.

...and yes, Jeff's greens on the Creek course have more curves than Jessica Simpson (who is no longer welcome in Texas Stadium by the way).  #4 on that side is a moth...let's just say it's tough.

[Jim Thompson]

I have only seen one good variation of this approach.  In the case I saw the starter would time stamp the groups score card and if that card made it back into the time clock in the proshop by a certain time span the club issued a discount coupon for the next round.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Some great ideas!  I'm going to show this thread to the GM.  He's a creative guy with a knack for making money for the course.

...and yes, Jeff's greens on the Creek course have more curves than Jessica Simpson (who is no longer welcome in Texas Stadium by the way).  #4 on that side is a moth...let's just say it's tough.

Lou,

Wild, Angry Greens?  I guess I listened to golf club atlas too much........and tried to go against the grain a bit.  They certainly are some of the more artistic greens in DFW.

The biggest part of our renovation to the Creek Course was that it now drains quite nicely, thanks to some fw contouring, and oh, yes, ugly ass catch basins!

Brad,

My only question about No. 4 is, why is it that Maxwell does a green like that and he's a genius, and I do it, and I'm an A--hole?    I guess I have to die to be appreciated! (not willing to do that yet)

Seriously, if I had put a bunker on the front and back right of that green rather than severe fallaway slopes, would anyone have questioned that?  What is it about using the putting surface as hazard that torques golfers off?  

As to the original topic, and using IC as an example, I think the trees and play corridors are probably the number one culprit in slow play there, and after that, I will admit that conceding putts in the leather automatically might be a good local rule.......

[Matthew Hunt]

Jeff, I think you build pretty cool greens, but I presume they stop your courses stimping fast?

[Brad Huff]

Some great ideas!  I'm going to show this thread to the GM.  He's a creative guy with a knack for making money for the course.

...and yes, Jeff's greens on the Creek course have more curves than Jessica Simpson (who is no longer welcome in Texas Stadium by the way).  #4 on that side is a moth...let's just say it's tough.

Brad,

My only question about No. 4 is, why is it that Maxwell does a green like that and he's a genius, and I do it, and I'm an A--hole?    I guess I have to die to be appreciated! (not willing to do that yet)

Seriously, if I had put a bunker on the front and back right of that green rather than severe fallaway slopes, would anyone have questioned that?  What is it about using the putting surface as hazard that torques golfers off?  

As to the original topic, and using IC as an example, I think the trees and play corridors are probably the number one culprit in slow play there, and after that, I will admit that conceding putts in the leather automatically might be a good local rule.......

Hey I'm not saying I don't like it.  I love that hole.  One of my kids birdied it the other day and you could tell he was proud.  I've watched some of the best area high school kids bomb it over those bunkers and walk away with bogey.

Agree on the assessment of IC.  There's also a huge population of people out there that play from the tips with no business doing so.  That's all I'll say.

[Doug Siebert]

Jason Connor brings up a really important point and one I don't think gets discussed nearly enough when the topic of slow play comes up here.  Golfers don't know how to play faster, because they haven't been taught!

A few times a year I'll play alone (walking) on a fairly empty course, and what seems to me like taking my time I'll play in say 2:15-2:30 depending on how many groups I run into and have to play through.  There are certainly people who can play faster than that, and I suppose I could too if I my goal was to beat two hours, but I just play like I always play when I'm with someone, I just don't have to wait on anyone else's shots.  I tell you what, if I mention the time I played 18 holes to other golfers most of the time the reaction I get is "you must be a fast walker!"  They really think that fast play is all about doing exactly what they do now, just moving more quickly!

For some fast play just comes naturally, or it has been learned by watching others or discussion.  But that's obviously not true for everyone, and while I'm sure there is some of that "I paid to be here, I can take as long as I want" mentality that gets a lot of blame, I think most people would have no problem changing their behavior to play faster if they don't think it impacts their enjoyment.  They just don't know how to do it.

The issue is in how the information is delivered.  I'll bet most of the time they are told via a "scolding" from a playing partner who is frustrated by the slower members of his group.  Everyone knows the typical result of that type of scolding when applied to a child, so I don't know why they think it would work any better when applied to adult who thinks he's past such treatment.  I know I'm guilty of this sometimes if there are people pushing my group from behind when we have space in front of us and I see one of my playing partners wasting time unnecessarily.

Imagine if instead it was given the form of a free "fast play lesson" where an assistant pro or volunteer amateur could play along with a group and give them tips on how to play faster.  If it was done in the form of a constructive criticism and there was some reward attached to to it, I think the outcome would be a lot better.

Let's say a course wanted to do a "fast play Wednesday" on Wednesday mornings, but the catch would be that you'd have to be 'certified' as a fast player to make a tee time during that time period.  So you'd play that round where you are taught how to do it properly so you really understand what you need to do.  Then you can offer the discounts or whatever for playing more quickly (perhaps made up for by moving the tee times one minute closer together on Wednesday mornings)

I wouldn't be surprised to see that sort of thing take off at a course that tried this and the fast play Wednesdays being to expand to other days and times.  So long as you start the day with faster players it should be workable.  You just can't do a fast play afternoon without a fast play morning, because it'll only take one slow group at 11:40 to ruin the pace for the afternoon groups.

[Bill_Yates]

Brad,
Have your GM read my July Interview on this site and give me a call.  This problem can be solved.