An excellent modern Redan

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I love Redan's and found this to be among the best that I have ever played.  This may not look like the template Redans, but the features are very much in existence.  The kicker can be seen, but certainly is not as pronounced as what one finds at Shinny or Southampton.

[Ryan Farrow]

^^^^^What he said, although that hole does look pretty nice. designer? course? yr. built?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The hole is angled as much as the template Redans.  This is the 6th at Wolf Run and the architect is Smyers.  The brilliance is that from the tee the angling is camolflaged.  The second picture shows the angling of the green.  Another difference from the templates is the use of a chipping area in the back right.  I am pretty certain that this is as difficult of a recovery as missing long right on Piping Rock's 3rd.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Among the US template Redans, most seem to be downhill--St. Louis, Sleepy Hollow, Yale, Creek, Lookout Mountain, Camargo, and Shinny off the top of my head.  Also, the miss left is extremely severe on this hole

[Sean_A]

The hole is angled as much as the template Redans.  This is the 6th at Wolf Run and the architect is Smyers.  The brilliance is that from the tee the angling is camolflaged.  The second picture shows the angling of the green.  Another difference from the templates is the use of a chipping area in the back right.  I am pretty certain that this is as difficult of a recovery as missing long right on Piping Rock's 3rd.

Robert

I can see that the green is angled a bit, but it doesn't look as though a grounder right of the bunker can kick to the bottom left of the green.  If it can, the archie has done a brilliant job of disguising part of the playability of the hole.  Which, btw, is one of the greatest skills an archie can have.  Its incredibly fun to watch somebody pull off a grounder shot that you would never dreamed of trying because you didn't "see it".

If its downhill I don't call it a Redan.  Its just another neat and easy way to categorize a hole, but which makes no sense as per the title of the hole.

Ciao

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The hole is pretty much level to maybe 5ft. drop.  A shot hit front right should be able to reach the back--there is pretty good slope on the green and there is a kicker on the front right.  A push clanker will probably skid through the kicker, but a low soft draw should advance far onto the green.  Smyer's designs wonderful greens complexes and this may be one of his best.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

There might not be as much slope as some of the older Redans, but with the greens speeds at this club--rarely under 10 and more often on the other side of 11, balls will find the back without any problem.  A skanker probably will miss the kicker, but something with a draw can reach the back.

[Sean_A]

There might not be as much slope as some of the older Redans, but with the greens speeds at this club--rarely under 10 and more often on the other side of 11, balls will find the back without any problem.  A skanker probably will miss the kicker, but something with a draw can reach the back.

Robert

That is very impressive.  What is the course?

Ciao

[David Stamm]

If its downhill I don't call it a Redan.  Its just another neat and easy way to categorize a hole, but which makes no sense as per the title of the hole.

Ciao

So Sean, you don't think the 11th at LACC is a Redan, albeit reversed?

[Sean_A]

If its downhill I don't call it a Redan.  Its just another neat and easy way to categorize a hole, but which makes no sense as per the title of the hole.

Ciao

So Sean, you don't think the 11th at LACC is a Redan, albeit reversed?

David

No, there is no such thing as a downhill Redan because the ground game aspect of the design is compromised - its a different sort of hole.  Part of being uphill is that the grounder is encouraged and seen as viable alternative.  Remember, a Redan is like a fortress and it isn't very clever to build your fortress in a valley.  Though, I could see folks trying to learn how to hit skinnied fade!

Perhaps the true concept of a Redan is not adhered to because folks don't tend to like uphill (or perhaps even the appearance) par 3s.  This is understandable especially if there is an obscured view of the green.

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

No, there is no such thing as a downhill Redan because the ground game aspect of the design is compromised - its a different sort of hole.  Part of being uphill is that the grounder is encouraged and seen as viable alternative.  Remember, a Redan is like a fortress and it isn't very clever to build your fortress in a valley.  Though, I could see folks trying to learn how to hit skinnied fade!

Perhaps the true concept of a Redan is not adhered to because folks don't tend to like uphill (or perhaps even the appearance) par 3s.  This is understandable especially if there is an obscured view of the green.

Ciao

Sean,

I like uphilll Redans better than downhill, for sure. But remember, the original hole was NOT built to resemble a defensive fortress! The hole was built, including a wooden-slatted wall, and then some retired British officer  made a remark while playing at North Berwick that the hole reminded him of the Redan at Sevatopol where he fought the Russians....

So an uphill Redan is just a better copy of the "original."  A downhill version is just that: a downhill Redan.

[Sean_A]

No, there is no such thing as a downhill Redan because the ground game aspect of the design is compromised - its a different sort of hole.  Part of being uphill is that the grounder is encouraged and seen as viable alternative.  Remember, a Redan is like a fortress and it isn't very clever to build your fortress in a valley.  Though, I could see folks trying to learn how to hit skinnied fade!

Perhaps the true concept of a Redan is not adhered to because folks don't tend to like uphill (or perhaps even the appearance) par 3s.  This is understandable especially if there is an obscured view of the green.

Ciao

Sean,

I like uphilll Redans better than downhill, for sure. But remember, the original hole was NOT built to resemble a defensive fortress! The hole was built, including a wooden-slatted wall, and the some retired British officer  made a remark while playing at North Berwick that the hole reminded him of the Redan at Sevatopol where he fought the Russians....

So an uphill Redan is just a better copy of the "original."  A downhill version is just that: a downhill Redan.

Bill

I realize that the hole was named after an event rather than purposely built to reflect that event.  However, because the name was added later doesn't mean the playing characteristics are altered.  To me thats the bottom line for a template hole.  The shot charactersitics are replicated in a new setting.  I don't see how a downhill (to any meaningful degree obviously) Redan can replicate the playing charactersitics of the original.  

I can understand a guy like Raynor getting bored or not finding the right bit of land to create the same hole over and again so he mixes it up.  No harm in that.  The mistake is calling these "mixes it up" Redans.  I spose you could say I use a strict definition where these template holes are concerned Ia dother aspects of design) because its awfully easy to think we are all talking about the same thing, but in fact are not.

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Can we please stop calling the 7th at Shinnecock Hills a Redan?

It was for a few years, but some guy named Flynn mucked up CB Macdonald's work...

No kick mound, no Redan....

[Bill Brightly]

  I spose you could say I use a strict definition where these template holes are concerned Ia dother aspects of design) because its awfully easy to think we are all talking about the same thing, but in fact are not.

Ciao

I'm sure Seth Raynor is sitting up there in architectural heaven, wishing he knew about "Sean's Redan Rules" before he wasted his time building all those downhill Redans...

[Bill_McBride]

The hole in the photograph looks very much like Smyer's similar downhill semi-Redan at Southern Dunes south of Orlando.  There too a shot that pitched into the front right wound up in the back left.  

Unfortunately a bit too far back, as it hung up in the froghair and didn't feed down to the pin that was 10' from the back edge.    It would have been fun to watch it creep down toward the pin.

That's one advantage of a downhill and therefore "semi-Redan" - you can actually see what's happening on the green rather than being surprised / startled once you get up there!

[David Stamm]

Can we please stop calling the 7th at Shinnecock Hills a Redan?

It was for a few years, but some guy named Flynn mucked up CB Macdonald's work...

 

Uh oh, I hear some stirring in Philly. Hang on to something Bill!

[Bill Brightly]

Don't I get bonus points if I can rile up BOTH Morrison and Bahto with the same line?

[David Stamm]

Don't I get bonus points if I can rile up BOTH Morrison and Bahto with the same line?

That IS a feat!

[J_ Crisham]

Surprised that no one mentioned the fine classic redans at Shoreacres and Chicago Golf. Amongst recent Redans I played a nice one at Rivermont in Atlanta. I think it was about 175yds.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I don't recall the redan having an elevated tee with little bushes directly behind the green.

I can't look "past" the background.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

It would be an incredibly great Redan if that land allowed for a sunken teeing area without the bushes.  Unfortunately, this hole is located at the corner of the property and the bushes are trying to block out noise from a fairly busy road.  The bushes were probably not ther 15+ years ago before Indy decided to grow in this direction.