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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2007, 04:28:58 PM »
Most ODGs could not survive today.....

And yet their work is most cherished by all.

Figure that one out.
George,
But it was not built TODAY.  And the work that is cherished is 75 years of good maintenance budgets from top tier clubs ;D ;D ;D  They would not survive. 8)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2007, 04:39:32 PM »
Here's another:

"Most living architects today could have survived in golf's Golden Age."

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2007, 04:43:08 PM »
Sorry, Mark, on that one, only the current archies would disagree.... :) Nowhere near 5%.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2007, 04:51:05 PM »
Sorry, Mark, on that one, only the current archies would disagree.... :) Nowhere near 5%.

I would disagree..not many would have made it.... ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2007, 04:52:32 PM »
I disagree with Wayne and especially Andrew S.  Wayne, I don't think Macdonald sought to just stamp out boilerplate holes on the topography.  If the topography indicated a great hole might be located there, then he did it.

I mean, look at Yale's Redan.  That's a nice green but it isn't a pure "template" hole in that the tee shot is a drop shot.  That was a choice green siting by The Neanderthal of Golf, or his "surveyor" assistant, whoever did it.

And if templates were so obvious how come it took George Bahto to correct everyone on Yale 4?

Wayne, I hope you're good with CAD because if you win you're going to need a lot of it to prove your point! (Better buy a lot of bandwidth while you're at it...)

Mike C, in my book you'll have to get past Andrew S.  His post is nuts!

Mike Y: heh heh -- Go Gators!

Mark

wsmorrison

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2007, 05:55:26 PM »
Mark,

I gotta prove what I said?  Preposterous  ;D  Though I think I can  ;)

I didn't mean that Macdonald would stamp out boilerplate holes just anywhere (though Raynor and Banks certainly manufactured them that way) but that he selected the site he would use because it fit the Redan, Alps, Eden, Short, etc. templates.  I do think it is worth considering why he chose poor soil and a poorer topography for his golf course when he had a lot of land to choose from (Sebonack for instance) that was more ideal for original golf designs.  He simply wasn't that sophisticated at the time.  He improved since the original Chicago Golf Club, but he would soon be overshadowed by others with a lot more talent and foresight.  Just because NGLA is world-class (and I believe it is) doesn't mean that it could have been an even greater design if the architect wasn't bound by strictures.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 06:01:46 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2007, 05:57:21 PM »


Mike Y: heh heh -- Go Gators!

Mark

Yep..down here in jacksonville with all my little Athens Dawg buddies.....good game
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2007, 06:34:00 PM »


Mike Y: heh heh -- Go Gators!

Mark

Yep..down here in jacksonville with all my little Athens Dawg buddies.....good game

Let me see if I've got this right.  You are down at the world's largest cocktail party Florida-Georgia game, and you're posting?

I hope you've matched your white belt to the red and black, you dawg!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2007, 06:36:53 PM »


Mike Y: heh heh -- Go Gators!

Mark


Yep..down here in jacksonville with all my little Athens Dawg buddies.....good game

Let me see if I've got this right.  You are down at the world's largest cocktail party Florida-Georgia game, and you're posting?

I hope you've matched your white belt to the red and black, you dawg!

Mark,
I pull for GT not UGA so while I sit here with my little Dawg buddies after 3 days of golf....watching their little doggies play...yes, I am posting..and i have on my white belt w pajamas with feet in them....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2007, 09:20:41 PM »
Am I still in the lead?  

I think my batting average is .000 with Tom Doak, Mark Bourgeois, and Wayne Morrison disagreeing with me.

I'll show them how they are all wrong later.  

If you're defining minimalism as not building up or modifying greens, i.e., finding a green site and sticking a flag in the ground, then I would agree with you.  If you're saying it's impossible to build a 10 on relatively-flat ground and for that 10 to qualify as "minimalist," then I would say, "Go ahead, name that tune."

But tell us, just how strictly are you defining "minimalist?"

And remember, the farther you crawl out on a limb the better! Why, just look at Mike Young's, Wayne's and Andrew S's crazy provocative posts. Andrew S's -- his might be a one-percenter! Set golf architecture back 40 years...

(Although I do think we need Andrew to shine a little "intellectual illumination" on his post so we can see if there's actually anything inside it.  So right now my vote for who we should put a beating on goes to Wayne.)

There is one more: Peter P, you've got to explain that one, especially the "honour the land" part.  That's a great turn of phrase.

Mark

Doug Ralston

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2007, 09:25:29 PM »
The tree is a vastly more 'natural' part of golf courses than the bunker/sand pit! Minimalism = use trees, forget sand bunkers, period!

Doug

Peter Pallotta

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2007, 09:47:14 PM »
Mark
I was just gonna post how good you are at this game, like as if you invented it :)

I think your post about the Masters is actually the winner-loser. The thought of playing the Masters on a landfill every April instead of at Augusta because history and tradition are irrelevant should get you almost no support whatsoever.Congratulations!

(Actually, I think your other statements are even more provocative, but there's enough contrarians on this site that you'd probably get more support than you bargained for).

On my statement, it's a question I've been thinking about and asking myself since I got here. I'll try to explain better what I mean a little later - it's not that the idea is complicated, it's just that I find it hard to write clearly about it.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 10:16:33 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2007, 11:00:48 PM »
The 9th hole at Mike Strantz's Caledonia Golf and Fish Club is a very good hole, despite the fact that it creates a bit of a loopy routing.

So there!  ;D :P
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Rich Goodale

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2007, 01:53:48 AM »
The original Mackenzie/Jones version of Augusta was a dog track that has only been improved by its numerous renovations.

PS--since I stole this idea from Jeff Brauer who obviously agrees with me, I'll need at least 38 Defenders of the Faith lambasting me to meet Mark's criterion.  Fire away!

Jim Nugent

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2007, 03:15:58 AM »
Strategy or options in golf course architecture are overrated.  

Average golfers -- the vast majority who play the game -- aren't good enough for it to matter much.  And for the tiny percentage who are good enough, the goal is still the same: hit fairways and greens.  Do that and if you have a decent short game you'll score fine, whether the course is "strategic" or penal.  



Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2007, 03:29:24 AM »
The experience of playing golf on one of the best courses in the world is only marginally better than playing on one of the worst.

Rich Goodale

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2007, 03:36:49 AM »
Jim

I disagree, only because you forgot to say "highly" overrated.

Jason

Sorry, bud, but I have to agree with you..... :'(

Mark

Great thread.

I'd say we are all experiencing an "Emperor's New Clothes" moment, although given the specific context of that analogy in the context of this DG, I think that we should err on the side of discretion.

Rich

Jim Nugent

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2007, 04:20:02 AM »
The experience of playing golf on one of the best courses in the world is only marginally better than playing on one of the worst.

Are you willing to pay what is usually many many times more, to get only a marginally better experience?  

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2007, 07:18:52 AM »
Pebble beach would have a much better sequence of holes [routing], if they reversed holes #9 through 13......and play better too.

In addition, the aesthetics of these holes would be vastly improved if they tore down the new maintenance facility and all the other crap they built in the interior of these same holes.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 07:22:29 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Walt_Cutshall

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2007, 09:07:20 AM »
The role of a golf course is to provide a playing field for competition. The importance of architecture is secondary to the ability of one golfer to get the ball in the hole in fewer strokes than his opponents.

I think you've nailed it here. There is a HUGE disconnect on this site between GCA and the playing of the game of golf, IMO.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Poster ISO 5% Thred 4 Kix
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2007, 09:20:19 AM »
Mark,

I think you'll see the results loud and clear of what I'm defining in the "Rate C&C's courses" thread, where the courses on the best land and/or best ambiance rose to the top while those on lesser quality land inhabiited the lower end.

Even Tom Doak agreed with someone's contention that the differentiator was largely the type of soils, landforms, etc., and not anything really in the direct control of the architect.

I said "pure" minimalist philosophy because here's what I think I mean.

It's easy to say, let's not touch much on great land.   Then, it mostly becomes the task of the architect to put together a great routing to match, some interesting and challenging shots, and final details.

However, that same approach to boring or placid land is an exercise in quickly diminishing returns.   It's like trying to play a poker hand holding a 2, 8, and 10 of different suits.

Garden City took the approach of having the holes be very minimalistic in terms of shaping, but then having minefields of deep bunkers influencing play...ditto Oakmont.   Is that minimalist by definition??

If someone can name me a great course on blase land where either 1) a ton of bunkers haven't been brought in to create strategic interest, or 2) Greens haven't popped unnaturally out of the landscape like upside down saucers shedding slightly misplayed or miscalculated shots in every direction, or worse, having all sorts of contrived bumps, swales, and rolls when the surrounding land is dead level, or 3) a preponderance of water hazards in use, please point me in that direction.  

;)  
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 09:22:00 AM by MPCirba »

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