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stevencollins

Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« on: August 13, 2002, 10:35:52 PM »
I'm an alum of Kansas State University and when I was there the only course we could play was the flood prone and nondescript Stagg Hill.  Now, we've got this supposedly great course Colbert Hills and I haven't had the opportunity to go back and play it yet.  I was wondering if anyone could give me some feedback on whether its a good course or not.  I drove to it once when I didn't have time to play and it looks great, though you would have to be in great shape to walk it.  I also know that the youth camp there is named after KSU's famed alumni, Earl Woods.  Other than that, I don't know that much.  They've taken the course map and pictures off the web site.  Anyone?

steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2002, 05:39:26 AM »
Steve,

My OU team had a dual match scheduled against K-State this April. It was a cool and cloudy day with some rain. I split the middle of the first fairway. As I was thinking about going for the green in two, the sirens blew. It started pouring and lightning and we were done for the day.

So I know this: the first tee at Colbert Hills is tough. There's a hazard left and OB right!

But really...from what I know, it is a huge, big, long, difficult golf course. It looked quite good, unless you're into trees, or subtlety, or walking. I guess from what I've seen and heard it's a very modern course, as we might describe it. Nobody on GCA, I don't think, would call it a "classical" design.

That's what I know for now. We have NCAA Regionals there in 9 months. If you haven't played it by then, I'll give you the lowdown!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2002, 06:02:05 AM »
I'd be willing to bet that Jeff Brauer's played it a few times, considering he's the architect of the course.  How impartial he'll be is another question!   ;D

I've played lots of extremely hilly courses with long distances between holes, and I considered them all walkable, even carrying your bag.  Extreme heat is the only factor that affects walkability IMO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Allan Long

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2002, 07:50:23 AM »
I played Colbert Hills right after Christmas last year. Although the greens were frozen, it took nothing away from the course. I thought it was well designed, with a good mix of holes, and I never got bored. There is some elevation change on the property, especially one drop-dead gorgeous tee shot on a front-side par 5 (#7 I think). We played the back tees, and although it was very long (especially in 38-degree weather) I was impressed with the entire layout. Can't wait to go back when I can feel my fingers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
I don't know how I would ever have been able to look into the past with any degree of pleasure or enjoy the present with any degree of contentment if it had not been for the extraordinary influence the game of golf has had upon my welfare.
--C.B. Macdonald

T_Henningson

Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2002, 08:51:22 AM »
I have played Colbert Hills twice, both in the year 2000 when it was a new golf course. It is really a good test of golf, and there are many sets of tees to choose from. The tips, also called the "Black and Blue" are extremely difficult at 7525 yards. The toughest part about the golf course is when the wind starts to blow...as it usually does in the summer in Kansas. Expect gusts of 20-30 mph each day and that will dramatically affect your shots.

My suggestion to you is to get to Manhattan to play that course soon as they are about to start popping in houses along the fairways, which will ruin the prairie character of the golf course in my opinion.

There are some great views from the golf course and head up to the back tees on hole #7 which is a 615 yard par 5 that begins with a 100 foot drop down to the fairway. It is a spectacular shot. Even if you aren't playing those tees for the rest of the round I would recommend heading up there to hit that tee shot.

Other great courses in the area are Rolling Meadows in Junction City, which is very cheap to play at $15, and is the best buy in Kansas for the money.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2002, 09:46:40 AM »
Of course I have played it, inlcuding this Memorial Day after leaving Archipalooza.  It was in great shape on Memorial Day, BTW.

I have played it in cold rain and warm sunny days, but have yet to experience the legendary 40 MPH winds, nor the back tees, which are more of a rumor to me, but I hear stories of extreme difficulty in the wind.  I also hear that most players are pleasantly surprised if they move up to the purple tees.

If you want more info, I have it my web site (jeffreydbrauer.com) which also contains a link the official course site.

They build about 20 houses a year in Manhattan, so I doubt the course will be overrun soon.  There is no way to get utilities out to the back of the course right now, so some holes will stay unspoiled forever.  

It may not be a classic, because of houses, and a few long walks planned for future roads, but because of underlying rock, we really didn't move much earth.  If follows the lay of the land very closely.  We also gave it a large modern scale, because most holes have vistas up to 40 miles and I felt a small featured course would simply dissapear in the landscape.  Also, fairways very wide and rolling, so there are options, and perhaps the abundance of sloped lies may be the most challenging course feature.

For you college competitors, I know from the pro shop staff (all golf team members) that the course does not take your driver out of your hands (even on the 267 Par 3 17th, when into the wind) and you will have to hit a few long irons and mid irons.  As one KSU team member put it to me, "Mr. Brauer, I grew up playing driver, sand wedge, but not here!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Ward

Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2002, 11:27:09 AM »
Jeff B:

Heard plenty of good things about Colbert Hills and I may even be able to visit in the next couple of weeks since my brother used to live in Salina. Just a quick quesiton -- do you see the course as the 2nd best in the Jayhawk State behind PD?

One other question -- I've heard the course rating is 75+ and the slope is 145+ from the tips. Can you provide exact yardage, rating and slope when played to the max?

Many thanks !
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2002, 11:40:03 AM »
Matt,

I think the numbers are 75.9 (good guess) and 151 slope (they print that on the hats, so I know its right)

As far as it's ranking, it has to be up there.  Of course Flint Hills National is good, but Colbert Hills is really a true flint hills course, while FHN is really a prairie course.  About all I can really say is I'm confident I got the most that site offered with the routing, and it was a rare case where I recommended the housing loop over a core course.  If you get there, try to imagine 18 contiguous holes going up and over those hills, rather than following the valleys...... Also, I have seen most of the new Kansas City courses on the Kansas side, and CH is by far the most dramatic.

Frankly, I think if you told most GD raters that the design credits were switched (ie Colbert Hills was Fazio, FHN by Brauer, it would assure CH of being second)  Of course, I happen to feel that's the case with all those ratings, that name value really figures more than design value.

I toured Chisholm Trails near Abilene, after reading of GolfWeek's / Brad Kleins lofty ranking, but found it to be a homemade course on a site not as good as Wildhorse, ie, overrated in my mind.

In Wichita, Wichita Country Club is a good club, by WH Diddel in 1950, and Tallgrass (Hills) Terradnyne, are good, but have housing. There is Alavmar in Lawrence and Dubs Dread in Leavenworth, Shadow Ridge in Lenaxa, etc. but see above.

If you get there, let me know how you liked it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

THuckaby2

Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2002, 11:55:22 AM »

Quote
I think the numbers are 75.9 (good guess) and 151 slope (they print that on the hats, so I know its right)


Another sign that the golf apocalypse is upon us.  They print the SLOPE on their hats?  Good god... is that as far from what slope is supposed to do or what?  Print course rating if you really must tout how difficult your course is.  Is it really good policy to tout a set of tees that will absolutely kill the bogey golfer?  Are they ASKING for 6 hour rounds?

This is nothing against you, Jeff.  I'm sure the course is great.  I just played one out here that is 150 slope from the tips and it's a damn great course.  I just hate how out of whack the perception of slope is.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2002, 11:59:44 AM »
Also, the yardage from the tips is 7525  :o.  Matt, just in your range.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2002, 12:27:26 PM »
Jeff B:

Agree with you assessment that too many people, including many raters, fall into the "name game" trap. If person "X" does the design then many people "automatically" give extra points just because of that fact. I don't.

Given the remote location of the course I just hope others take the time to visit. My brother used to live nearby and has seen the property and mentioned I should put it on my radar screen.

Fascinating to learn how you routed the course on top of the hills instead of through the valleys. I can only imagine how the famed daily Kansas winds add to the "enjoyment" on many days. If I remember correctly I believe Ron Whitten wrote that Colbert Hills is just too demanding even from the front tees for the novice player -- I believe his overall rating was 8.4 on a scale of 10 being perfect, however, he also scored the course at a 2.9 level for being less than player friendly. Do you concur with that assessment?

I know I always enjoy challenges of that type and would relish playing the course from the max as Scott B indicates at 7,500. Is much of that yardage spread around -- i.e. not just bumped onto the par-5's like you see with the course totals at Hazeltine National? One last question -- is there a standard prevailing pattern during summer months versus other times. At Bandon and Pac Dunes you get a northerly wind during the summer on most days and it reverses itself during the winter. Did you factor that into your design equation?

Many thanks ...

P.S. If you or anyone else has playeds both Sand Hills and Colbert Hills how would you compare / contrast the two?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2002, 02:00:53 PM »
Matt,

I meant to imply that I routed the course almost exclusively through the valleys, expressly to get the player out of the wind as much as possible.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The course is pretty balanced, and gets its length from everywhere - a couple of 500 yard par 4's (although 14 is still considered a "layup" hole for the KSU golfers, 3 par 5's over 600, and 3 par 3's over 200, including 17, clocking in at 267,and directly into the prevailing SW summer breeze, to boot!  It is a redan style, with a run up opening to the right, if you need it.  (I do)

The wind can blow from any direction though.  During construction, Mr. Cobert mentioned that the TPC had forced carries from the championship tees of over 200 yards, and felt that was reasonable.  One day, a north wind hit the course, and he tried to hit a few tee shots into it, and found he couldn't carry the natives at that length, so we pulled them back.  Of course, the fairways are wide, and the forward tees don't require much forced carries.  

Also, Jim Colbert is pretty dogmatic about the best way to use the wind in design.  We followed his thoughts - He is (I think) fairly typical of a competitive player will vary his shot pattern, to try to use every thing to his advantage to score well.  As such, he likes all a hole's "traffic signals" to say the same thing.  Thus, if the wind blows right, and the ground slopes right, then the fairway and green targets usualy angle right, to accept a fade, for example.  He likes to test shot patterns on each individual hole, but does'nt like a lot of confusion about what those patterns need to be.  Confusion breeds bad golf shots.

He likes definition, and for example, hates the 7th hole tee shot, because he hates to have to carry the corner of the left fairway bunker, or aim at the right bunkers.  He likes framing bunkers to punish left to right misses better.  On the other hand, he likes six, which has a carry bunker on the right, so go figure.  I have only been working with him 25 years, and sometimes the language and thought pattern of the tour pro versus architect still don't mesh!

I saw Ron's evaluation, and all I know is many people tell me it isn't as tough as feared.  Maybe they don't feel they can talk freely.  I CH's play suffers a bit from folks who assume its too tough.  On the other hand, when the first charge is to build a tournament tough test, its hard to keep it really easy for beginning players like Ron's daugther.

As to the Colbert/Sand Hills comparison, hey even I like Sand Hills better!  C and C designed in a lot of "non standard fun" shots that you just wouldn't design in a course aimed at identifying the best collegiate players, given the basic ideas of how they like to play the game. Plus, as remote as CH seems, SH is so much more remote as to make it truly special.  CH comes close though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

T_Henningson

Re: Has anyone played Colbert Hills?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2002, 04:42:57 PM »
Jeff:

I saw that you mentioned Chisholm Trail in Abilene, KS. I actually worked on a renovation plan for a grad school project two years ago for the course. Even though the golf course is only like 5 years old it really needs to be "fixed". The routing is awful, as it calls for countless irons off tees, and the holes are too close together which causes safety issues. The irrigation system used is not up to golf course standards, and the plum thickets in the middle of the fairways are terrible. I guess that is what you get when you are an owner and want to build the course yourself. He crammed the holes together so close that he lost the design intent that Bruce Dixon had when initially designing the course (plus he basically threw out the proposed back nine and built it in such a way that he could cram a few houses surrounding the site in the future). If anyone has a chance to play this course....DON'T, it is a family owned, operated, and maintained golf course that is nowhere near the caliber of Colbert Hills.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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