cheater line and slow play

[Tommy Williamsen]

I really should not reprise this can of worms, but after following a four ball for 18 holes it made me crazy.  Almost every one in the group would mark the ball, crouch to replace their ball on the green and then line it up, stand over the ball, crouch down again, then get the line right.  

Just what we need, another way to play slowly.

[Kalen Braley]

I feel your pain...

A begineer I play with does this on every tee shot and every putt on the green.  Seeing how he's new, 3 jacks aren't uncommon so it adds a good 10 minutes to the round I'm guessing..

[C. Squier]

Like anything else, line up while others are playing....teach that beginner proper fast play etiquette and he can line up/plumb bob/dance over every shot.

CPS

[Powell Arms]

You're in good company. Dottie Pepper has this in her top three reasons for slow play.  And I agree with her.

[Jerry Kluger]

Just tell Dottie slow play is spelled LPGA.

[Bill_McBride]

Paging Shivas.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tommy,

A few years ago at our club and within our four ball(or five) I insisted that everyone had to follow the continuous putting rule. The speed with which we finished eighteen holes was qute amazing. What followed was that our group putted better than ever. Sadly, I am now the only survivor of the group and I go along with cheater lines and high handicappers looking like property surveyors staking out a new development.

The answer to slow play is continuous putting and a penalty for taking longer that 45 seconds to play the shot or putt at hand.

Bob the curmudgeon.

[Scott Szabo]

I must admit to using the "cheater line", but I don't think it, in and of itself, slows down play.  What slows down play is waiting for another player to play his stroke before beginning to read the green, settle in for your pre-shot routine, etc.  

A cheater line in and of itself, does not slow down play.  

I use it all the time and don't feel it holds up play at all.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but to me, what slows down play is everything that takes place once another player has played his stroke.  If you are reading your putts, taking a look at the contours of the green while the other player is getting ready to play his stroke, it shouldn't take long to play your stroke.

As I said, maybe I'm in the minority, but it doesn't take long to set your ball down on the intended line, using a "cheater line", and playing your stroke.  What takes time is reading the greens, from all angles......

[Brad Swanson]

You're in good company. Dottie Pepper has this in her top three reasons for slow play.  And I agree with her.

What does Dottie have to say about the whole "caddy line me up for every shot" routine that is mandatory in the LPGA?  Have you ever seen an instance where the caddy tells the player they are lined-up wrong and the player adjusts?  Take the training wheels off ladies.

Cheers,
Brad

[Powell Arms]

You're in good company. Dottie Pepper has this in her top three reasons for slow play.  And I agree with her.

What does Dottie have to say about the whole "caddy line me up for every shot" routine that is mandatory in the LPGA.  Have you ever seen an instance where the caddy tells the player they are lined-up wrong and the player adjusts?  Take the training wheels off ladies.

Cheers,
Brad

She and I didn't discuss it extensively, if at all.  Just read it in a short blurb in SI two weeks ago about slow play in general, not specific to the LPGA, and found it interesting in light of the discussion here re: cheater line.  I seriously doubt the LPGA plays any slower than the PGA.  However, I think we do agree that the problem is one that trickles down - if the pros do it, than a lot of amateurs follow suit.

[astavrides]

Whenever i try the cheater line, I find that when I actually stand over the ball the cheater line is pointed left of the hole.  Does anyone else have this problem?  Surely, with all the proponents of the cheater line on this board, someone could tell me what I am doing wrong.  

[Walt_Cutshall]

The LPGA players have been documented to take much more time on the greens than the PGA players.

[corey miller]

Scott Szabo

I  would not even know someone was using a "cheater line" if it weren't already delaying play.

[Jerry Kluger]

Someone could say that the reason that the cheater line is pointing left is because it is a left to right putt but I will leave that alone.

Fact is that our mind can play games with us with respect to how we view a putt.  Nancy Lopez pointed out that when a right handed player, who is right eye dominant, is lining up a left to right putt, he will see more break standing over the ball than he saw from behind the ball.  This might not apply to what you are describing but it does make the point that things can look much different from behind the ball versus standing over the ball.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,

A few years ago at our club and within our four ball(or five) I insisted that everyone had to follow the continuous putting rule. The speed with which we finished eighteen holes was qute amazing. What followed was that our group putted better than ever. Sadly, I am now the only survivor of the group and I go along with cheater lines and high handicappers looking like property surveyors staking out a new development.

The answer to slow play is continuous putting and a penalty for taking longer that 45 seconds to play the shot or putt at hand.

Bob the curmudgeon.

Then if we can get them not to mark the ball and line up the line we would really have something.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I must admit to using the "cheater line", but I don't think it, in and of itself, slows down play.  What slows down play is waiting for another player to play his stroke before beginning to read the green, settle in for your pre-shot routine, etc.  

A cheater line in and of itself, does not slow down play.  

I use it all the time and don't feel it holds up play at all.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but to me, what slows down play is everything that takes place once another player has played his stroke.  If you are reading your putts, taking a look at the contours of the green while the other player is getting ready to play his stroke, it shouldn't take long to play your stroke.

As I said, maybe I'm in the minority, but it doesn't take long to set your ball down on the intended line, using a "cheater line", and playing your stroke.  What takes time is reading the greens, from all angles......

Scott, I agree with the premise.  My experience is that those who do as you suggest do not slow down play.  The problem is that too many players don't even begin to line up their putt until the previous player has hit his putt.  Then he lines up and monkeys with the cheater line.  It is amazing to me how smart people can be so unaware on the golf course.  It is just common sense.  I think that some people just check their brains at the first hole.

[Mark Pearce]

I seriously doubt the LPGA plays any slower than the PGA.  

You're joking, aren't you?  I nearly lost the will to live at the British Ladies Open.  The speed the women play I'm astonished they manage to play a tournament each week.  Cheater lines, replace cheater lines, caddies lining them up.  Awful, just awful.  The idea of being ready to play in turn is entirely foreign to these women.  The men's tours are bad, very bad but not this bad.

[Scott Szabo]

Scott, I agree with the premise.  My experience is that those who do as you suggest do not slow down play.  The problem is that too many players don't even begin to line up their putt until the previous player has hit his putt.  Then he lines up and monkeys with the cheater line.  It is amazing to me how smart people can be so unaware on the golf course.  It is just common sense.  I think that some people just check their brains at the first hole.

Tommy,

Then we are in agreement.  Cheater lines, by themselves, are not the problem.  It is typically the nature of those who use them, which I don't disagree with.

In my opinion, it starts with what we see on tv every day.  I worked at the International for years as a scoring observer and I could never figure out why it would take a threesome over five hours to play.  That is, until I walked with them.  Not one of them would study their putts while another was readying to play his stroke.  It was ridiculous.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Scott, I agree with the premise.  My experience is that those who do as you suggest do not slow down play.  The problem is that too many players don't even begin to line up their putt until the previous player has hit his putt.  Then he lines up and monkeys with the cheater line.  It is amazing to me how smart people can be so unaware on the golf course.  It is just common sense.  I think that some people just check their brains at the first hole.

Tommy,

Then we are in agreement.  Cheater lines, by themselves, are not the problem.  It is typically the nature of those who use them, which I don't disagree with.

In my opinion, it starts with what we see on tv every day.  I worked at the International for years as a scoring observer and I could never figure out why it would take a threesome over five hours to play.  That is, until I walked with them.  Not one of them would study their putts while another was readying to play his stroke.  It was ridiculous.  

When I was a youngster, I remember that before kids could go out on the course without an adult, we had to play nine holes with the pro.  He not only wanted to see our demeanor, but the pace of play.  If we didn't line up a putt while others did and were not ready to play when it was our turn we failed.
The sad thing is in our litigious society that not many pros could get away with it.

[Powell Arms]

I seriously doubt the LPGA plays any slower than the PGA.  

You're joking, aren't you?  I nearly lost the will to live at the British Ladies Open.  The speed the women play I'm astonished they manage to play a tournament each week.  Cheater lines, replace cheater lines, caddies lining them up.  Awful, just awful.  The idea of being ready to play in turn is entirely foreign to these women.  The men's tours are bad, very bad but not this bad.

Just being provacative.  But as you say, both tours are bad, and, IMO, unacceptably slow.  And the example that is set is one source of the slow play problem.

[Steve Kline]

The USGA could make a difference on this. In their amateur events they have a pace of play guideline that is very black and white. Their are times listed on your scorecard that you need to finish each hole by. If you are more than 14 minutes behind those times it's a warning. Second time a shot and so on. There are checkpoints every four holes or so. Built into the overall time for the course is time for lost balls, rulings, etc. I've talked to several on the Mid-Am committee that say this has dramatically improved the pace of play. So, does the USGA use this for the U.S. Open and would they have the guts to stick it to Tiger or anyone else if they fell behind it?

[Kirk Gill]

I can at least understand why a professional golfer whose livelihood is on the line might play slower than I do. There are rules in effect for those players, and if they're not breaking them (and if the rules are being enforced) then so be it, irritating as it might be. But that behaviour trickling down to us mortals is...........frustrating!

[Jerry Kluger]

It is rather obvious what has happened in professional golf - the pace of play is dictated by the pace of the slowest player.  The players have come to understand that if they play at a faster pace they will be spending a whole bunch of time just standing around.  So what they have done is learned to play at a slower pace.  They wait until it is their turn to look at their yardage and they wait until their turn to determine the line for their putt.  The blame falls on the PGA Tour and the USGA for not requiring the players to play more quickly so they have had no choice but to adapt to the slower pace of play.  I have simply given up on watching golf on TV except for major championships unless my family is out of the house and I want to take a nap.  

Pace of play for the rest of us is simply a factor of where you are playing.  It has been my experience that at most private clubs the pace of play is not an issue except perhaps at off hours when beginners or older players who have a hard time getting around are playing.  Public courses will always have difficulty with pace of play as munis don't want to get residents mad and the others are looking to make a buck.