[Tim Gavrich]

Reading the "Best Short Par 3" thread a few minutes ago, I got to thinking about what might be the largest difference in distance between a golf course's longest and shortest par 3, and how that might factor into its overall "shot values."  Then, the following formula popped into my head as a possible way to gauge a golf course's shot values in terms of variety in lengths of holes:

Length Differential (LD) = (longest par 3 - shortest par 3) + (longest par 4) + (longest par 5 - shortest par 5)

I'll give Lexington (VA) G&CC as an example.

Par 3s (ascending in length):
165, 171, 179, 185, 191 ~~> 191 - 165 = 26 (terrible)
Par 4s:
325, 334, 339, 346, 370, 396, 417, 430, 434 ~~> 434 - 325 = 109 (not bad, I suppose)
Par 5s:
517, 517, 524, 525 ~~> 525 - 517 = 7 (also, terrible)

LD = 26 + 109 + 7 = 142

I'd call a good LD score something in the 325-375 range.  Lex G&CC's low score doesn't surprise me--I don't feel as though I hit a wide variety of clubs there.

Well Treehouse, whaddya think?

[Kyle Harris]

Of those Par 5s, how many play shorter or longer?

Uphill or downhill?

With or against the prevailing wind?

So what I think... ahh, you're pretty sharp, you figure it out.  

[John Kirk]

Tim,

I think this exercise, like the other recent attempts to quantify course value, are very interesting and worthwhile.

Nothing drives me crazier than a course where par 3 length differential is small.

Shoal Creek and Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow) are two examples of very good courses with poor par 4 differentials.

A large par 5 differential may not be as important.  500-550 yard par 5s are more fun than a 650 yarder. Perhaps that differential should be eliminated counted as half.

[Jim Nugent]

An interesting idea.  I tested it on TOC, using a scorecard the St. Andrews Links supplies online.  (http://www.standrews.org.uk/golf/the_courses/old_course_scorecard.html).  Total yardage from on this scorecard comes to 6721.  So the numbers might be a bit bigger from the tournament tips, though I wouldn't think substantially.  

Here are the differentials:

par 3's.......8 yards
par 4's.....139 yards
par 5's......16 yards

Total comes to 163 yards.  Barely more than Lexington.  

Does TOC lack shot values?  

[Tim Gavrich]

Of those Par 5s, how many play shorter or longer?

Uphill or downhill?

With or against the prevailing wind?

So what I think... ahh, you're pretty sharp, you figure it out.  

I do realize that these important qualities don't get factored into the calculation, but you'd need quite a lot of elevation change and wind to make a big difference, and while it's a hilly site, those four holes really do play pretty similarly, length-wise.

John, I'm inclined to agree about the par 5s.  I always like to see at least one good reachable par 5 and one three-shot par 5 on a golf course.  In order to account for the relative insignificance of the par 5 lengths, it'd make sense not to count them officially, and to just consider them on the side.

Among the world's great courses, which has the best LD?

[Jon Wiggett]

Among the world's great courses, which has the best LD?

Tim,

you don't mean best but rather most. The idea of testing shot values against difference of length of the different par holes is fundamentally flawed. It must assume that all holes are flat and play the same length off the tee and only covers shots played into the green. Part of the shot value which is hitting draw or fade and running a low one in or flying it are not addressed. Judging shot value can only be done on site and will change every round due to weather, course conditions and how the player plays. It can certainly not be done from the desk with the scorecard.

Take the following example

Par 3 160 yards playing into 15mph wind flag behind a bunker is for me a high flighted 4 iron.

Par 3 160 yards playing into 15mph left to right cross wind flag tucked into the right green sloping right to left is for me a high flighted 6 iron.

Par 3 160 yards playing with 15mph down hill down wind flag in the middle is for me a high flighted 8 iron or a low running 6/7 iron.

Par 3 160 yards playing with 15mph up hill into the wind flag in the middle is for me a high flighted easy 3 wood or a low running 3/4 iron.

All these factors need to be taken into account with shot value

[Matt_Cohn]

Oakmont as a par 71:

Par 3's: 288-183=105
Par 4's: 499-313=186
Par 5's: 667-477=190

Total=481

Hard to imagine another course beating that number...

[Mark Pearce]

Elie doesn't have a par 5, so it's at an immediate disadvantage but:

214-131=83
466-252=214

LD= 297

Which beats Oakmont's combined LD for par 3s and 4s.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I don't think it makes any difference with short holes or long (5s) holes. Perhaps a range of 4s is important. 10 4s at 450 would be too hard 10 4s at 400 probably too easy for a good player. I do not know of any courses with a very narrow par4 range, they probably do not exist.

[Kyle Harris]

So, I get Par 4s with the following lengths...

450, 451, 448, 430, 301, 310, 310, 315, 295, 470, 450, 300....

High differential, but not much variety.

I think, by nature of the beast the par 5s and 3s will have the smallest and the par 4s will have the highest differential. Most courses feature Par 3s in a 110 yard range (100-210), the Par 4s in a 170 yard range (300-470) and Par 5s in a 110 yard range (490-510). Factor in that Par 3s and 5s occur less often and you'll get less chance for variance.

I could see some value if meaning was attached (why is 7 terrible for par 3s and 60 good, for example).

Next, we'll bring some ANOVA into this...

To the Z-Scores!

Let's fail to reject some null hypotheses.

[Tim Gavrich]

I could see some value if meaning was attached (why is 7 terrible for par 3s and 60 good, for example).

Well, would you find a set of par 3s with lengths 180, 181, 182, and 183, or a set of par 3s with lengths 115, 155, 195, and 235 more compelling?  My guess is that no matter what, you'd prefer the second set, if for no other reason than the fact that you'll very likely hit four different clubs on the four par 3s.  That's what I'm really going for.  Of course wind and elevation change can render two 175 yard holes more different than one might think on paper, but I'd still much rather have a 140 yarder and a 185 yarder instead, every time.

[Tom_Doak]

I don't have a scorecard handy so I don't know the exact numbers, but I do know that both St. Andrews Beach and Barnbougle Dunes have a differential of more than 200 yards between the shortest par-4 and the longest.  The shortest par-4 on each is about 270 yards and the longest is something like 490.

In fact I think St. Andrews Beach would give Oakmont a run for its money ... the back tee on the par-3 16th is 270 yards so there is a 120-yard difference there, and the first hole is 100+ yards longer than the 17th.  And anyway, they played the ninth at Oakmont as a par four for the US Open; you shouldn't count that as a par five and then use all the new Open tees for the other holes.

[Mark Manuel]

Piqua CC, Ohio

Par 3's 225-161=64
Par 4's 436-309=127
Par 5's 555-501=54

Thought it was interesting because the Par 3 difference is greater than the Par 5 as is Lexington.

I wonder if there isn't another way to do this?  A good golf course always makes me use every club in the bag and the Par 3's are almost always a good example of that axiom.  

Par 5's seem to be driver, some type of wood/utility club and then a wedge.

So if you take the Par 3's and then Par 4's less the average driver length shouldn't you have the range of 100 to 240 yards covered for the average golfer?  Go 10 yards and that could the 14 holes you are looking for outside of the standard 4 Par 5's?

Is that easily measured and do architects think in these terms?

[William King]

Cobblestone GC in Acworth Ga:

from the tips: Par 3 240-133 = 107
                   par 4 472-313 = 159
                   par 5 570-523 = 47

from the next up: Par 3 205-128 = 77
                        par 4 427-292 = 135
                        par 5 538-484 = 54

Either set of tees makes you use the whole bag

[Adrian_Stiff]

I just looked at ours; The Players Club.

(3s)
185-240    (55)
(4s)
311-489    (178)
(5s)
568-696    (128)

[BCrosby]

Except for par 3's, I'm not sure this metric means much.

ANGC is as follows:

5's - 575 to 510 - (65)
4's - 505 to 350 - (155)
3's - 240 to 155 - (85)

Total - 305

[Doug Sobieski]

Wolf Run - 325

Granted, it's a card from a few years back, and they may have modified things a bit.

[Ken Moum]

Royal Dornoch = 170

North Berwick, medal = 275, gents = 209 (The par fours are 190 and 182, however)

Cruden Bay, medal = 301, gents = 307 (the gents fours are 216)

Brora (despite having only1 par five), medal = 226, gents = 249.

Nairn = 266

Lundin GC, medal = 284, gents = 297

[Brian Noser]

Just recently played Old Hawthorne here in Missouri and I thought the course made you use all the clubs in your bag. The differential is as follows.

par 3s from the tips

258- 176 = 82
 
par 4s

467 - 334  = 133

par 5s

662  - 525  = 137

total 352...

I dont know how much this says but I am throwing out some number for you all..

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