Old Oaks (AWT) in Purchase ny

[mark chalfant]

this  Tilly  design (built by Alison)  rarely gets mentioned. Granted  Weschester Co. has  a wealth  of good ones.   but is Old Oaks fun to play or worthy of study ?

[grandwazo]

Mark, I played the course a couple of years ago in a local Met PGA Lincoln Pro Am event.  If I remember correctly it was in great shape, but I don't remember a single hole for the life of me.  I do remember the club house however.  Not a good sign.  It does have a very positive reputation in the Met section and sometimes in these events which are generally shotguns, starting on the 5th hole doesn't always serve the best interest of the course.  I played Stanwich on Monday, also in a Met section Pro Am, starting on the 8th hole, and I kept waiting for the course to show its "greatness", and unfortunately it never did.  Hard? Yes.  Great conditioning? Yes! But at the end of the day I regretted choosing the outing at Stanwich over an outing at Friars Head being held the same day.  Sorry to get off topic, but Old Oaks, Metropolis and now Stanwich all did not live up to what I expected, whereas Shinnecock, National, Maidstone never fail to surpass those expectations.  

[Jeff Loh]

jsiskind
sorry about your experience at Stanwich. Played there in high school(easy to sneak on) and in a couple of tournaments. Long and in great shape but i totally agree--just doesn't get the "passion" going. If i had known you had a choice between that and Friars Head, well, gas is expensive but......
mark
dont know old oaks too well but century is right next store and i used to know the asst caddy master and played there alot about 10 years ago. really fun course-great greens and lots of strategy. my friend moved on long ago and i think its pretty hard to get on.

[Bruce Katona]

I was just there yesterday for an outing....easy to see the AWT infuences....greens have more than enough contour and the holes work well with the natural contours.  It is a fun place to play.

Downside:
1.  Way too green and moist...no ground game....too much water.
2.They need to have a huge ice stom and lose about 2,000 trees....the place looks like a nursery....many of the holes hav been tree line over the years...easy to see where some member endowed plantings as it looks like a landscape architect's dream for plant supplies..
3. Due to tree planting and lack of pruning, they are beginning to lose pinnable green locations and useable tee area...not from shading , but trees block or impede the correct line of play for the average golfing member.

[corey miller]

I am surprised some of the issues highlighted by Bruce were not addressed in the recent renovation plan at the club?

That stuff would be pretty basic.

[Bruce Katona]

maybe the members are happy with the current course landscape and conditions....it's their club to do with as they wish.

[corey miller]

Your statement would seem to make sense.  Members do own and run the club and they deserve to have it the way they want.  I am not sure I made any arguement otherwise, in fact it was you who pointed out the downside, I only pointed out that any restoration/renovation guy should make an effort to teach/educate the club what a 1920's layout should look like.

I don't know the situation at Old Oaks, but I do know there are renovation guys who don't touch stuff like this because it runs counter to the lowest common denominator conventional wisdom and might in fact jeopardize their chances of getting the work.

[Bruce Katona]

Corey: Who was the entity to make the restoration pitch to the green's committee/membership?

I would love to see an old air photo of the course from the WW II era compared to now to see the difference.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

From what I have heard, the renovation plan did include significant tree removal.  Unfortunately, the membrship overwelmingly opposed this part of the plan.  Hard to believe, but there has been significant tree removal from where it was 15 years ago. The problem is that another 1500-2000 trees need to be removed.  That being said, this is a top flight Tillie design that probably gets lost among the trees. I have played in tournaments many times over the years and have seen many parts of the course other than the fairways--there is great ground movement and quite a few mounds that are lost in the trees.  They have finished the green restoration and some of the new pin positions are awesome.

[Bruce Katona]

I agree....it's very easy to see what the course should play like....I, as you Robert, always enjoy seeing all of the course, not just faieways and greens.  This place could be really fantastic, but the members have always known the estate landscape they currently play and are reluctant to change.  When they have a membership turnover, look to recruit and replac cuurent older members, this issue of bringing the course back to it's roots will be revisited.  

They were successful with this several years ago at Philly Cricket Flourtown Course (they brought in several consultants to advise the club on tree removal - I have a collegue who is a member).

Several other memebrs of this group may want to commment more on this topic as they have more information on Philly Cricket  than I do.

[Michael J. Moss]

Mark,

Because of their close proximity to each other in Purchase, NY, Old Oaks and Century have often hosted sectional qualifiers for the US Open and Amateur. I remember following Mark McCumber around Century - his afternoon round - the year he won the Tour Championship at the Olympic Club. He made a mess of things in the morning at Old Oaks and regretted not at least walking the course prior to his round. The fact is, it's a course you have to learn how to play. Many of the landing areas off the tee are blind making it difficult to find the right line of play.

On the subject of trees, I spoke to Ken Dye shortly after his work there was completed and he confirmed the membership's resistance to aggressively remove more than they did. Selfishly, I wish they'd take down a tree on the par-3 7th that forces the golfer from the back tee to hit a mid-iron fade to a green that was built to receive a short-iron shot. I don't have that shot in my bag. I think Ken did a wonderful job recapturing lost putting areas and his rebuilt 15th and 18th greens conform nicely to their Tillinghast/Allison brethren. But an Old Oaks historian might confirm the fact that there might be a green or two that were redesigned by Frank Duane in the 1960s.

To me a really interesting feature of Old Oaks is their unused acreage north of their course and clubhouse that used to be part of an additional nine holes. When Route 684 was built, a few of the holes were lost and the rest abandoned. You can still see the remnants some grown-over greens. They have room to either reestablish several probably terrific holes or whatever else. The value of that property, even in a less robust housing market, is astronomic! It is one of the top, top estate areas in Westchester County.

[Bruce Katona]

Mark: I know exactly the shot you describe on #7 as that is what I attempted to hit Wednesday (after explaining to my playing partner that that large (oaK) tree took 1/3 of the tee box away from most members and the shot was hard enough to play to a green guarded by water without trying to hit in a high fade around the tree (I hit a slight draw into the burn-just left of the greenside bunker).

I saw the vacant land but didn't know who it belonged to....again an existing air photo overlain with an older photo from when the current course was 1st built would show us wonders.

[JimFatsi]

Mark,

Because of their close proximity to each other in Purchase, NY, Old Oaks and Century have often hosted sectional qualifiers for the US Open and Amateur. I remember following Mark McCumber around Century - his afternoon round - the year he won the Tour Championship at the Olympic Club. He made a mess of things in the morning at Old Oaks and regretted not at least walking the course prior to his round. The fact is, it's a course you have to learn how to play. Many of the landing areas off the tee are blind making it difficult to find the right line of play.

On the subject of trees, I spoke to Ken Dye shortly after his work there was completed and he confirmed the membership's resistance to aggressively remove more than they did. Selfishly, I wish they'd take down a tree on the par-3 7th that forces the golfer from the back tee to hit a mid-iron fade to a green that was built to receive a short-iron shot. I don't have that shot in my bag. I think Ken did a wonderful job recapturing lost putting areas and his rebuilt 15th and 18th greens conform nicely to their Tillinghast/Allison brethren. But an Old Oaks historian might confirm the fact that there might be a green or two that were redesigned by Frank Duane in the 1960s.

To me a really interesting feature of Old Oaks is their unused acreage north of their course and clubhouse that used to be part of an additional nine holes. When Route 684 was built, a few of the holes were lost and the rest abandoned. You can still see the remnants some grown-over greens. They have room to either reestablish several probably terrific holes or whatever else. The value of that property, even in a less robust housing market, is astronomic! It is one of the top, top estate areas in Westchester County.

Michael

Yes, when 684 went through the club lost some 3 or 4 holes, I would guess that if the club wanted to, they could re-find 5 or 6 of the original holes, the land is just sitting there and its great the club has not sold it over the years.  This club has a lots and lots  of cash, and someday some members may re-establish the lost holes as a 6 hole warm up course. Also a good point on the trees, I once saw an arial photo of the Purchase area, I think is was pre 1940, Old Oaks was tree-less.

[corey miller]

Let's drop this fantasy of reestablishing "lost holes".  If the club does not fully restore (including tree work) what they already have they are not going to return a field to the look of the twenties.  

But I am sure Ken Dye is very persuasive maybe he can keep working with the club and getting them going in the right direction. A tree here and there, well on the way.