How will history remember Killian and Nugent?

[John Kavanaugh]

I couldn't help but smile when some guy guessed K&N renovated Glencoe.  What in Chicago haven't they touched?  How did they get to own Illinois and what work will be remembered as they fade away.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

I hope someone didn't die......

Anyway, I am not sure if I am the best or worst to answer this question, but I doubt many others here even know KN well enough to answer, which may be your answer.  And my memories of my time there are generally fond, and that I got GREAT gca training.

For others, I think that overall, they rate a mention in the 60's to 2000 era, perhaps about like Stiles merits a mention from the GA.  They will be remembered for Kemper Lakes.  Kemper Lakes will be remembered as a course Payne Stewart won on, but that was otherwise only selected because of the clout of Kemper and was one of a run of PGA venues that later convinced the PGA to stick with more traditional courses for the most part.

Later, Dick Nugent has Harborside and a few other notable courses, while Ken fell off the map in terms of high profile work.  FWIW, they might be remembered for the slew of gca's that came out of their office, including myself, Jim Engh, Bob Lohman, Stan Gentry, Jim Blaukovitch, and the late Bruce Borand, among others.  While the work style and intent of their protoges varies, with most of us following their path of more moderate public and less private course design, all are solid course designers and have designed venues enjoyed by millions, even if only the occaisional tournament is played on our courses.

Some here will remember them for disfiguring classic Chicago courses, but in their defense, they started in 1964 and the general trend then was modernization, bunker rationalization, and maintenance friendly design.  As bad as the golf biz is now, I believe that in the sixties, and in the first oil scare of 1974, the golf biz was even worse, and their designs reflected a certain prevalent practicality.

They trained under RB Harris and were technically sound.  They realized that the moon crater bunkers were an aesthetic nothing and determined to follow the work of Dick Wilson, albeit toned down just a bit for maintenance reasons. They considered RTJ as a model as well)  While some of their holes might be considered mundane or strategically lacking, given their client base, they rarely designed a truly bad or awkward hole.

To answer some of John's questions about how they got so much Chicago remodel work, I remember them talking about their early days, and they felt they were at a disadvantage to Larry Packard, who started earlier and had better connections.  They focused on wooing superintendents to get the one or two green remodels, in large part because they thought that was what was available to them.   Apparently it worked, because they probably only designed 20 new courses together in their 20 year partnership, but must have remodelled in part about 5-10 times that.

[David Stamm]

The very first course I ever played was Odessa CC Links course (formerly The Links at Mission Dorado). For me personally, Nugent and Killian will be viewed for partly getting me into the game because I really enjoyed the course.  

[cary lichtenstein]

History will remember them for the 11th and 12th holes at Kemper, get thru those and 16 and you can shoot a decent round.

I used to bet everyone in my 4 somes $100 that anyone who could par the last 4 holes could keep the $400, and it was only paid out once in maybe 50 plays.

[Rob_Waldron]

It is my undrstanding that the Authorities of the Chicago Forest Preserve were so impressed by the Killian Nugent design of Kemper Lakes that they were retained to design what is now George Dunne. Dunne was recognized as one of the top 100 daily fee courses after it opened. Conditioning deteriorated until the past two years after Billy Casper Golf took over the operation and began paying attention to playing conditions.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Rob,

Yes, George Dunne was one of the courses that they got after the success of Kemper.  Great piece of land and overall a solid course.

Cary,

More KN trivia - the 17th was the first green plan I ever drew, and my second plan was the revised 11th green, which was also the first green I ever staked out in the field for actual construction!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Its quitting time! I looked through my computer files, and found that I had written this about Ken and Dick years ago.  Take it for what its worth and enjoy.





Ken Killian and Dick Nugent were kind enough to hire me coming out of the University of Illinois with big dreams and even bigger ideas.  I apprenticed under them for seven years until the desire to branch out on my own was too strong.  Of course, one of the reasons any young designer branches out is to “remove the shackles” of antiquated ideas of their employers!  Although we had a great collaborative process at Killian and Nugent, I wanted to experiment.

Killian and Nugent were influenced by their mentor Robert Bruce Harris, who owned several golf courses during the depression and designed to the concept of maintaining the course with bare minimum expense.  This meant that bunkers were scientifically placed exactly one gang-mower width from the green and all slopes were so gentle (6:1 or greater) to allow mowing with only two people on tractor drawn equipment of the day.  Bunkers were big ovals for maximum efficiency.

Killian and Nugent were positively influenced by his engineering approach to golf course design.  They produced elaborate grading and drainage plans that were built nearly exactly to plan in the field, including 100 scale grading plans, drainage plans, clearing, staking and dimension plans, and green detail plans at 20 scale.

They had learned the principals of efficient routing from Robert Bruce Harris, but strove to change the style of their mentor.  After some deliberation, as to what architect’s style to emulate, they selected Dick Wilson as their role model for green design and bunkering.  They used multi-lobe bunkers similar to the Dick Wilson style, but often continued to use the oval style bunkers on one or two holes per golf course as homage to Harris and for contrast.  The most striking example is #9 at Kemper Lakes.  Their bunkers were more conservative and generally left a greater green opening than Wilson (Perhaps as a result of competing with Robert Trent Jones, and the need - particularly after Jones’ 1951 remodeling of Oakland Hills, which gained fame as “the monster.”)  But, Killian and Nugents’ early clients were typically municipalities concerned with speed of play.  At one time, Dick Nugent devised a formula for the width of the greens opening.

The other evolution of their design was backdrop mounding for the greens.  Robert Bruce Harris generally produced exceedingly large greens, which were contoured at 3-4% slopes.  A typical feature of the greens was a pronounced knob approximately 10-15 feet inside the back edge of the green.  This resulted in a portion of the green falling away from the golfer, which was often criticized by golfers.

Killian and Nugent retained this feature in their early design work, but soon worked on with a local shaper who pushed the backing mounds off the putting surface and convinced them of the wisdom of this plan – it made the back edge of the green clearly visible to the golfer, provided backdrop and framing, made more of the green cuppable and helped hold in shots that lacked backspin.  From that point on, backing mounds became a standard feature of the Killian and Nugent designs.  They were also necessary as they featured many backing bunkers similar to the style of Dick Wilson and refused to make those blind.

Dick Nugent liked to experiment with design elements that were both bold and dramatic.  At Kemper Lakes he installed a beach bunker combined with a railroad tie wall.  He utilized new pressure treated lumber rather than old railroad ties to create a distinctive look.  Most of the courses designed during my time at Killian and Nugent featured at least one or two large oversize bunkers – often one in the fairway and one along the green –not a bad combination if properly placed.  

Dick told me no architect ever got famous by being timid or by designing easy golf courses.  Nugent often quoted the dictum that “you got to give them something to talk about.”  That was his personality.  Ken was more conservative, but had more overall artistic ability and was a bit shyer.