[John Kavanaugh]

I think it is great when people get to play holes that they like.  What would you tell an architect to include on a renovation or redesign just cause you like it.  I think the short par 4 is an excellent example...The driving question is how long with what bias.  I like a downhill, downwind 285 yd hole with a carry bunker at 260 with a reverse redan green.  Is this type of thing bad for the overall value of the course?

[JESII]

Yes...you ought to pick an architect based on their merits...not your wishes...

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes...you ought to pick an architect based on their merits...not your wishes...

What is wrong with building or changing a course so you like it more?

[Rich Goodale]

There is not an architect in the world--past present or future--who could deisgn a course that would benefit my game.  Nor yours, John, if you want the brutal truth.....

[JESII]

Yes...you ought to pick an architect based on their merits...not your wishes...

What is wrong with building or changing a course so you like it more?

Why call in an architect to fluff your pillows? Why not just do it yourself?

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes...you ought to pick an architect based on their merits...not your wishes...

What is wrong with building or changing a course so you like it more?

Why call in an architect to fluff your pillows? Why not just do it yourself?

I think we often go to experts to tell us how to find what we want.  I don't see a problem with telling an architect exactly what you want and letting him figure out how to build it for you.

[Joe Hancock]

I want the architect to use his or her design skills create benefit for a shot that doesn't make sense to 98% of the golfers.

With enough plays, I can make it to the 2% bracket and gain an advantage.

Joe

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe
I've already got that 2% bracket filled. I like to think of myself as a ground-breaker.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

My first client, Don Hayden, didn't make any suggestions like that at all.  He was a good senior player who could only drive it about 220 yards ... and I built him four par-4's which were 400 yards from the white tees that he couldn't reach in two!

I've tried to be a bit more sensitive to the client's golfing abilities since then.

[George Pazin]

I've tried to be a bit more sensitive to the client's golfing abilities since then.

I wonder how Barney is going to twist and abuse this statement in the future.

Any architect could build an ideal course for my game - no trees, no rough, no water, no internal OB - but who would pay him to do so? Probably only me, and I don't make enough $$$.

[Tom_Doak]

George, you are right, so I'll put that quote in context:

A project is not going to turn out great unless it is a fun experience for everyone, including the client.  So you want the client to be involved, and you don't want him griping that everything you are building is going to kill his game ... if you do that, as John suggested, the course may well get changed after the architect is gone.

With that in mind, we like for the clients to feel free to provide us with input, as long as we are free to ignore the parts we don't think are going to work well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes...you ought to pick an architect based on their merits...not your wishes...

What is wrong with building or changing a course so you like it more?

What's wrong is that the architect must forge a disinterested challenge, one that's balanced and does not favor or cater to a specific element or golfer.

If the architect creates a hole to your liking, he's compromised his resposibility to forge a balance challenge for the entire membership.

This is exactly how courses get disfigured.

Party A, now in power, alters a hole or feature to better suit his game.  Succeeding power groups, seeing the the course is open to change by the membership, begin to craft features and holes to their liking, until eventually, the golf course bears no resemblance to it's original form, and is nothing more than a quiltwork of atlerations intended to favor special interest groups that have held power over the last X number of years.

Ask yourself, how many courses that allowed the membership to alter feature after feature and hole after hole, are that outstanding ?

Then ask yourself, where did the trend for restoration get its momentum ?  Answer, from the membership altering and disfiguring the golf course until it became unacceptable for play by the membership.   Until they had a epiphany wherein they discovered the value of the original architecture and the error of the club's ways over the years.

Why not perform plastic surgery on yourself and your family members until you're satisfied that the changes you've made to everyone are an improvement over each individual's original form ?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I agree with your premise about green chairmen disfiguring golf courses in ways that would benefit their own games.  I've seen that many times.

However, on a new course, it is possible to build a hole or two which would favor a certain player without throwing the whole course out of balance.  Providing variety within the course allows an architect to build holes which favor different players.  One just has to be aware of the overall balance and not lean too far in one direction.

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

Here is an example through a post by BCrosby that I believe proves you wrong.  I like what this club is doing..

Touche Tommy.

Interesting topic. At our club in ATL we are discussing converting a mediocre 400 yard par 4 into what might be a really intersting 300 yard par 4.  The course does not now have a hole like it. It would be a nice change of pace.

The reactions of various people have been interesting. Most initially wanted to make the existing hole harder. Others wanted to shorten it to a really hard, long par 3.

But after some back and forth, most now seem to like the idea of a strategically bunkered, small green, reacheable 4. I do too.

The point being that the instincts of the everyday golfer when asked to fix a mediocre hole is to change it in ways that, in essence, will tighten scoring spreads. They want to make the hole narrower, longer and harder.

Which seems to me (almost) always the wrong design choice.

Bob

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