Whose Indians Were They? A Shinnecock Question

[JMorgan]

I was reading one of Willie Dunn's accounts of his early courses in the United States and came across the following line:

"I laid out plans for twelve holes and started to work with one hundred and fifty Indians from the reservation, the only available labor."

Ok, Willie had 150 Shinnecock Indians at his disposal to build the course, and we read about the use of their burial mounds as bunkers in front of holes, their empty whiskey bottles discovered in "yawning-bunkers and sand-traps" by unlucky shots months later, and so on etc.

So I search for some of Willie's courses and come across an excerpt from www.longislandgolfnews.com regarding SH:

"Work commenced in 1928 led by construction foreman Dick Wilson, and 150 Shinnecock Indians were employed to help with the task. The course re-opened for play in 1931 and it remains Toomey & Flynn's undoubted masterpiece to this day."

Wait a minute:  that looks familiar... uh, because the text was essentially lifted word for word from gca.com.

Only, I am now wondering: Did Dick Wilson and Willie Dunn use the same 150 Shinnecock Indians to work on the course.  Maybe they were still alive and in good physical condition 40 years later?   Maybe the reservation have a 150 max limit on the number of Indians doled out to course construction?  But did the reservation still exist in 1928?  Maybe someone just mistakenly switched Dunn's Indians with Wilson's Indians?  Maybe Wilson and his imaginary 150 little Indians did build the course themselves after all?

Not a big deal, but it points out how easily information -- correct, incorrect -- gains equal weight and gets passed along from source to source until it is accepted as gospel.   I have discovered so many of these transpositions, assertions of fiction-for-fact, et cetera over the last few years that I could soon fill a volume.  

And so ends my rant of the day.  Good night.

[Mike Sweeney]

Not a big deal, but it points out how easily information -- correct, incorrect -- gains equal weight and gets passed along from source to source until it is accepted as gospel.   I have discovered so many of these transpositions, assertions of fiction-for-fact, et cetera over the last few years that I could soon fill a volume.  

James,

I know you are right, a poster here once wrote, "I can get to Bethpage and Garden City in 20 min from Midtown, esp. early in the morning.  (Fifteen min. on Sunday morning.)

That poster would have to drive the 33 miles from Midtown Tunnel to Bethpage at 99 mph with no slowdowns or lights to get there in 20 minutes. Getting there in 15 minutes would be at 130 mph. What was that guy thinking!?  

[Tom_Doak]

We only needed 60 Apache laborers to build Apache Stronghold.

[wsmorrison]

Dick Wilson was not the construction foreman for the complete redesign of Shinnecock Hills.  William Gordon oversaw the construction by Toomey and Flynn, Contracting Engineers of the William Flynn design.  Dick Wilson worked under William Gordon.  It was William Gordon that saved Dick Wilson's job, intervening on his behalf with an irate William Flynn when Wilson deviated from the exact design plans.

While Shinnecock Indian laborers probably did construction work, Flynn's regular crew was involved...especially because there was such little work at that time.  The only projects Flynn had completed in 1931 was the design and construction of Seaview Pines course (9 holes) and the plans for the Miami Beach Polo Club, which apparently never went to construction.  

[JMorgan]

Sweeney (you Bonehead), I stand by my claim, which is hard, cold fact but shall remain unsubstantiated insofar as you are concerned -- at least until you get over your fear of my driving and your aversion to B&T drunks leaving Manhattan at 3am.  

Tom, I'll verify your claims when I'm out there next month.  It better not be 59 or 61.  

Thank you, Wayne.  A man of obvious common sense and decency!

[TEPaul]

But you're right JMorgan, information that is rumor or incorrect often does get reported for fact, and then somebody later simply picks it up again and reports it as fact citing some earlier story. Do that a bunch of times and most people take it as gospel.

The fact is the first and third courses of Shinnecock were given incorrect architect attribution for quite a while, even by the club.

That's why opinion and such on here that is passed off as fact without some really good documentation should always be challenged or at least questioned.

Sometimes we should be wary of people who constantly call THEMSELVES 'expert researchers and historians'. Still today, I do not believe that historical facts indicate that County Life Magazine should be considered the primary conduit of architectural teachings, nor do historical facts indicate that Horace Hutchinson should be deemed the "father" of golf course architecture through that conduit, or otherwise. And I don't believe historical facts indicate that the great "Golden Age of Golf Course Archiecture" should be more appropriately relabeled "Arts and Crafts Golf".

[Tom_Doak]

In the interest of full disclosure, we did have four white guys on the crew for Apache Stronghold, who did most of the shaping work.  But the rest of the work was done by the Tribe, not by outside contractors.  And I'm happy to know that apparently I am not as "difficult" as Flynn, because I've never gone off on anyone for not following my plans precisely.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

To get to GCGC it takes 15 minutes from the intersection of the Cross Island Parkway and the LIE.

Once you exit the LIE on New Hyde Park Road there are [size=4x]25[/size] traffic lights and one railroad crossing to contend with.

I don't care if it's 2 am, 4 am, or 6 am on any day of the week, forget about the traffic, those 25 traffic lights will not allow you to make great time.

I've played that course and I can attest to it.

[JMorgan]

Patrick, let me get this out of the way, and then perhaps we can get back on topic.  Otherwise, I'll ask Tommy to delete the thread.

I get off an exit earlier on the LIE to avoid that New Hyde Park morass when heading to GCGC.   Nevertheless, I have never driven to GCGC in the early morning.  I was talking -- a year ago or more -- about driving to Bethpage in 17 minutes, very early in the morning, and passing the GC exit in much less time.    

But it's really not that important to me how quickly I can drive to any golf course.  To put things in perspective, I drive to Farmingdale in a half an hour during normal traffic to visit a family friend in hospice who is Stage IV.  That time is much more important to me.

The recurrence of this issue here is a bit odd and mean-spirited.  But a little razzing is good for everyone, however obtuse, and so I play along.  
 
What is ultimately more important is how others answer my question in the original thread, which was about golf course architecture, something that you have been pretty adamant about discussing in lieu of OT threads all along.   If the discussion group continues to become more about bashing people, then it is a waste of my time and I'll just spend it with more empathetic people asking similar questions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JMorgan,

How was my post "people bashing" or "mean spirited" ?

Seems like you're overly sensitive on the subject

Mike Sweeney made some comments and I addressed them.
I'm familiar with getting off the LIE an exit earlier and it's no better unless the LIE is backed up.  Besides, I've always prefered the NSP to the LIE.

As to your original post, I've commented on that issue dozens of times, stating that you can't always rely on published accounts, and that corroboration from independent sources would lead to a greater degree of reliability.

The classic example was when someone quoted an alleged statement by Donald Ross, declaring that Seminole was flat.
Anyone that's ever played Seminole knows how grossly false that statement is.