Were most classical features found by accident and/or necessity?

[James Bennett]

Patrick

I checked Shackleford's book on Riviera for the Thomas sketch (my copy of Golf Architecture in America is on loan to a course supt interstate, so I can't check that at present).

On page 68 and 69 of Riviera Country Club's Definitive History, Thomas's graph of the side profile of #18 is reproduced.  It shows that without the wash being filled, the green site would have been set just before the wash at a hole length of some 310 yards.  With the wash filled in, the green could be located at 430 yards.  The chart shows that the new green site would be raised about 10 feet above the natural grade through fill.  The area short of the green was to be raised some 27 feet in the deepest part of the wash.  So, the sketch implies that the #18 green has been raised and built entirely on fill, and not cut into the hill.  

Thomas did write that 'wash was filled by soil taken from the hill at right and greater length secured.  Drainage was cared for by piping'.  The hill to the right in the sketch is the hill leading up to the clubhouse.  The sketch does not show where the cut was proposed.

So Patrick, I think this implies the green was raised, rather than cut into the hill.

There is some interesting editorial on these pages by Ben Crenshaw, who was involved in the restoration of Riviera greens with Bill Coore.  Ben described Riviera  as

'quite possibly the very finest MADE golf course in the United States'.

Later, he added

'a major fill (27 feet!) was utilized for filling a natural wash some 100 to 150 yards short of the present 18th green, and for the No. 18 green site as well.  Thomas and Bell took vast amounts of earth and filled the areas at the base of the clubhouse for several reasons:
1) it took the feature of abruptness out of this wash in order to provide a more gradual climb toward the finishing hole;
2)more length was provided and thus made #18 a more challenging hole;
3) the 18th hole now merged "imperceptibly" with the land leading up to the clubhouse to provide a more natural appearance;
4) to provide a wonderful "natural" amphitheatre for the finish of the round for spectators;
5) the balance of the "cut" and "fill" was utilised in the formation of the Second green, the 3rd teebox, and the 9th green and its surroundings.'

The Definitive History is a good read indeed.  I appreciate my copy.

James B

[Forrest Richardson]

John — What is a "classical feature"? How does it somehow get its own category...because it was born in a certain period? Do you also include archaic features, ancient features, etc. in the range "classic"?

[Jeff_Brauer]

John:

About thirty years ago, shortly after it opened.  Surely some clearing must have taken place before now.  Isn't eleven the serpintine par five up a draw?  Thirty years ago there wasn't enough sunlight to grow fungus.

Patrick:

Civil War battle trench (forget hell!)
A low mound placed to keep scrapers from crushing a pipe
A crude ramp, built by the first dozer on the site, to allow for unloading subsequent equipment.
A breached cattle pond
RIB remnent
 

Mike, I have had all of those occur and plenty more.

How about inexperienced dozer guys, or experienced guys who came to work drunk?  Or were argumentative?

I got so mad at a dozer guy one day I got into a rare screaming match (of course, here on gca.com, not so rare, but that is a different story.....) He had been building everything too soft and I told him he could stop digging this grass bunker when I told him to.  I went across the creek to see another green site, got in a discussion, and happened to glance back.  The dozer appeared to be gone and I started back there, thinking he had gotten mad and left the job.....just then, I saw the top of the dozer cab appear from the hole being dug.  I was almost going to fill it back in a bit, but the client came by and loved it so it stayed.

As you say, when things happen, you have to recognize them, and make the most of them.  Its the best way to break down the subconsious formulas and ideas we all have (whether we care to admit them or not)

[Patrick_Mucci]

I checked Shackleford's book on Riviera for the Thomas sketch (my copy of Golf Architecture in America is on loan to a course supt interstate, so I can't check that at present).

I have a copy in front of me.[/color]

On page 68 and 69 of Riviera Country Club's Definitive History, Thomas's graph of the side profile of #18 is reproduced.  It shows that without the wash being filled, the green site would have been set just before the wash at a hole length of some 310 yards.  With the wash filled in, the green could be located at 430 yards.  The chart shows that the new green site would be raised about 10 feet above the natural grade through fill.  The area short of the green was to be raised some 27 feet in the deepest part of the wash.  So, the sketch implies that the #18 green has been raised and built entirely on fill, and not cut into the hill.  

The schematic/sketch shown on page 69 is "an approximate sketch."

If you'll look at page 128 you'll see a photo of # 18 green taken on opening day.  If you're familiar with the site, you know how steep the incline behind and left of the green are.

It appears more likely that the green was benched into the side of the surrounding hills vis a vis a cut and fill method[/color]

Thomas did write that 'wash was filled by soil taken from the hill at right and greater length secured.  Drainage was cared for by piping'.  The hill to the right in the sketch is the hill leading up to the clubhouse.  The sketch does not show where the cut was proposed.

So Patrick, I think this implies the green was raised, rather than cut into the hill.

I understand what you're saying, however, the slope coming down to the green from behind and left are softened as they approach the green.  I would think it was a cut and fill situation rather than strictly a fill situation.[/color]

There is some interesting editorial on these pages by Ben Crenshaw, who was involved in the restoration of Riviera greens with Bill Coore.  Ben described Riviera  as

'quite possibly the very finest MADE golf course in the United States'.

I think you have to examine the context of Ben's remarks.
They are for publication in the Riviera history book and Riviera was a client of theirs, hence,  you wouldn't expect anything other than glowing remarks.  I think that Yale, Lido and NGLA might hold that distinction[/color]

Later, he added

'a major fill (27 feet!) was utilized for filling a natural wash some 100 to 150 yards short of the present 18th green, and for the No. 18 green site as well.  Thomas and Bell took vast amounts of earth and filled the areas at the base of the clubhouse for several reasons:
1) it took the feature of abruptness out of this wash in order to provide a more gradual climb toward the finishing hole;
2)more length was provided and thus made #18 a more challenging hole;
3) the 18th hole now merged "imperceptibly" with the land leading up to the clubhouse to provide a more natural appearance;
4) to provide a wonderful "natural" amphitheatre for the finish of the round for spectators;
5) the balance of the "cut" and "fill" was utilised in the formation of the Second green, the 3rd teebox, and the 9th green and its surroundings.'


Crenshaw acknowledges the cut and fill nature of the 18th green in points 3, 4 and 5.[/color]

The Definitive History is a good read indeed.  I appreciate my copy.

Me too, I'm trying to obtain more of these club histories.
I wish that some of them would be updated since they were written a while ago, and, I"d like to see more and more of them focus on the architecture as well as the other topics.[/color]

[James Bennett]

Patrick

I think Ben said 'quite possibly' the very finest made course in America.  I also recall the good Doctor often making very glowing remarks about several of his courses.  Architectural license perhaps. I don't read it as a definitive statement, but does recognise Riviera as one of the best.

I haven't seen Yale, NGLA and (obviously) Lido so no debate from me at this time.

Regarding Ben's points 3, 4 and 5.  I think only the 5th point has to be read as implying cut and fill.  It is possible (you imply improbable) that points 3 and 4 only required fill.

If there is any cut into the hill by the #18 green at Riviera, perhaps on the mound that juts into the green at about 7 o'clock (front left) and perhaps the spine running down at 1 o'clock (back right).  Perhaps not as well.  For the rest of the green and the approach, it appears to my eye that the raising of the green (ie fill) has enabled a softening of the natural hillslope as it blends with the green, rather than a steepening of the slope.

I'll review my pictures on another night and consider my next response.  Certainly all of the earthworks and fill at Riviera warrant a discussion of their own.  Many of Riviera's classic holes required quite a bit of work (fill) to make them as good as they are.

James B