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TEPaul

Re:Old Tom Morris Turf Dykes
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2007, 07:35:35 AM »
I'd bet most of those old features on the really old courses, particularly if they were inline with the direction of a hole were done for drainage reasons. You're all calling them dykes but I bet originally they were ditches and dykes.

Originally they probably just shoveled out a ditch and piled the dirt on the side as they went along which became the dike. Because of the tendency of sheet drainage water to bring dirt and silt along with it the ditch part of most of these old features has probably filled in over the years to become almost impercible now.

Oakmont has a number of these open inline drainage ditches on some holes and they sure do get in the heads of players if you stray wide of the flanking bunkers. I bet those ditches are original to the course which don't forget was begun in 1903.

Personally, if this type of feature was used today in new construction I'd keep most of it either inline with the hole or use it as a slight diagonal and do it with the dike or grass covered wall and not the depressed or sunken ditch. If you turn these features dead perpindicular to the line of the holes then they become an architectural feature very reminiscent of the old "steeplechase" style of architecture that included the perpindicular cop bunker and such.

This type of thing, in my opinion, was the way of early rudimentary inland architecture just after golf and architecture left the linksland. It was a form of golf architecture fairly closely related to the world of recreations to do with the horse which back then was the basic mode of local transportation anyway so it was not illogical for those people building inland courses back then to create features very reminiscent of the world of horse recreation and horse related sport such as steeplechasing, foxhunting, horse racing etc.

Should this type of basic rudimentary feature be used again in golf architecture as it was over 125 years ago? Golf architecture seems to be looking back to the past bigtime these days so I see no real reason why it shouldn't look even that far back again. Will it be accepted today? Who knows. The only way to find out is to try it again and see.  ;)

PaulC:

Cancel those that big machinery that carts huge quantities of earth and file all over the site on the Maryland project and just bring a couple of hundred shovels and a ton of immigrant laborers via President Little Shrub's new immigration proposal.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 07:45:39 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

Re:Old Tom Morris Turf Dykes
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2007, 08:12:19 AM »
I read in GD this month that Oakmont actually re-opened some of its old ditches in the last couple of years. Good stuff.

It's a feature that definitely should be revived. They help drain the course for much less expense than laying pipes and catch basins, with the added virtue of being in play and adding to the strategic mix.

The best example I know is the ditch that runs diagonally across the 13th (?, it's a par 5) fw at Palmetto in Aiken.

Ross designed several that ran diagonaly across fw's at Athens CC, now all piped and covered.

Bring 'em back. They are a win/win.

Bob

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Old Tom Morris Turf Dykes
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2007, 08:30:24 AM »
I'll probably try to build one of those on my next field visit somewhere.  Like all "quirk" it won't be as effective as the old stuff done for drainage reasons before anyone knew how a golf course was "supposed to be" designed.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael

Re:Old Tom Morris Turf Dykes
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2007, 09:27:47 AM »
could the ditches or dike combinations simply be a type of extended grass bunker?

paul cowley

Re:Old Tom Morris Turf Dykes
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2007, 09:38:15 AM »
Jeff....I'm sure that if you do one there will be enough Quirk to share and then some :).

But me and TomP are going to do one too....a 5' diagonal wall running through the center line on a really visible up sweeping hole....and then turning at 90 degrees to cross in front of the green with a ruined gap to play thru to reach the par five putting surface ....the break in the wall is needed to serve as a guide to the blind green surface, although the flag will be seen.

For decorative effect there will be some sections where the fieldstone might show thru the turf....especially where the cart trail openings will go thru the walls....I guess we will have to just take advantage of the old openings between fields that have double faced stone work to pass through.

On second thought ....match that for quirk Jeffo :).
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 09:39:56 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mark Pearce

Re:Old Tom Morris Turf Dykes
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2007, 09:53:35 AM »
There's a diagonal feature on the 2nd at Huntercombe, running along the right side of the fairway that could well be one of these.  I've played it perhaps 25/30 times but my memory just isn't clear enough (as a hooker of the ball my problem on that hole tends to be the rough, hedge and OOB on the left of the fairway).  Perhaps Philip can comment on whether it could be considered a turf dyke and ditch.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tony Ristola

Re:Old Tom Morris Turf Dykes
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2007, 11:10:25 AM »
Hmmm...Will have to get back at you in about 12-months...bizarro coincidence...or not...I just had this discussion yesterday...Kai???
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 11:11:04 AM by Tony Ristola »

Ulrich Mayring

Re:Old Tom Morris Turf Dykes
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2007, 07:44:41 PM »
Originally these embankments were used as dykes on linksland. When some linksland was started to be used for golfing purposes, the dykes were simply left in as hazards. Old Tom Morris was probably the first to actually build them on inland courses, where dykes as such weren't actually necessary.

Willie Park Junior is another architect, who liked earthworks. After him they were not used much anymore, because they were a symbol of "Victorian" style architecture. Not very popular in the Golden Age.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 07:47:10 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Bill Gayne

Re:Old Tom Morris Turf Dykes
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2007, 09:43:00 AM »
Side and center picture exposing stone core with turf growing over.




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