[Bob Jenkins]

What is a signature course?

I used to think that the architect must have left his signature such as Pete Dye with his railway ties. Apparently that is not it.

I read last week that Fred Couples had just visited his new "signature" course called the Rise, in Vernon, B.C. for the first time. The website (www.therise.ca) refers to the course as the "culmination of a 10 yr. partnership between Freddie and Gene Bates". Some holes are seeded and most if not all are now laid out and ready for seeding. I have no knowledge of Freddie expressing unique characteristics as a designer such as he could now have a "Signature" course. Nicklaus apparently has a criteria before any of his courses can be called Nicklaus "Signature" courses. such as a certain no. of visits to the site by him, his consent, etc.

I am not so naive as to not realize that it is all marketing but as someone who has been hanging around golf courses all his life and knows a bit about it, what should I understand a "Signature" course represents? And does anyone care?

Bob J

[Jeff_Mingay]

Bob,

As you may know, it was Robert Trent Jones Sr. who coined the term "signature" design.

I'm pretty sure it had something to do with an advertisement he ran featuring his signature and relating it to the unique mark he'd leave designing you a course.

It was probably pretty clever marketing at the time, but it's definitely overused and meaningless these days.  

[Tony Ristola]

I don't know about meaningless. Perhaps it come closes to hitting that level here.  Reading Dream Golf was interesting for the one consulting company's take on non-signatures.

Jeff, Hope all is going well at Sagebrush.

[Tom_Doak]

Maybe the term just means that once you are well known enough that someone asks for your autograph, your courses take on a new marketing appeal (and you get paid more for that).

[Brad Klein]

It's the kind of term that replaces thinking and decription in golf writing. In other words, it's a cliche that allows a big-name architect to be a big name wihout questioning or explaining what they do. Some architects now even charge a premium for the "signature series" in their company line, as distinguished from just having their lower associates do the work with no high-profile site visits by the big name guy. My suggestion is to avoid the term -- a good rule of thumb when it comes to using any promotional terminology.

[Brett Morris]

It's the kind of term that replaces thinking and decription in golf writing. In other words, it's a cliche that allows a big-name architect to be a big name wihout questioning or explaining what they do.

Exactly what a big name architect did on a 'signature' course in SE Asia.  Turned up for an inspection after shaping and irrigation system had been installed ready for grassing.  Stood on one tee and instructed all to drop the fairway 3 feet.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Jeff - not sure about meaningless, especially if you are paying the bills.  As you know, both Palmer and Nicklaus have price quotes for 'signature' designs which are considerably more than just using their design companys.  "Signature" courses are differentiated from standard designs by contract and include (among other things): multiple site visits, personal approvals at various stages, license to use 'signature design' in advertising and personal participation in opening days.

Paying the costs are considered very worth it to some owners while not worth it for others.

JC

[redanman]

Is this a little like Paris Hilton and Anna Nicole Smith?

Famous for being famous.  


I always thought that it came from RTJ Sr. as well.  As I remember in the 1960 when people started to talk of course pedigrees (As much with Donald Ross as anyone else) RTJ started marketing the concept. One JWN was probably the first to actually "sell" "Signature Courses"  even to the point that clubs had JWN's very recognizable signature across the fronts of their scorecards (And paid handsomely for that privilege).

I think the Tom Fazio Group now uses the term "Tier" - at least internally. Higher Tier, higher price, what else? Dunno.

Personal observations:
I do have the distinct impression that in the 1960's as players began to visit more courses and noted ones that they really liked certain ones and noticed that they were designed by Donald Ross - RTJ picked up on this and coined the "Signature Concept".  This implied a certain cache and we lemmings sought them out. We were sometimes disappointed, but we did know what to expect.  We became more aware of architects.

Frank Hannigan in the sadly missed Golf Journal really introduced the interested to one A.W. Tillinghast and now depending on your circle almost every golfer that plays 20 or more rounds a year can name at least 10 architects, even if 75% of them are golfer-architects.  It's a start I suppose.

Today we follow different lemmings in different groups, whether or not the architects brand their courses "Signature" or not. I'll wager that most (At least 51%) on here can eventually name 50 architects if they think a little. That's really saying something!

So I suppose in the end equal parts credit go to Donald Ross for building so many courses of a certain quality or higher in different parts of the country and RTJ for building a marketing concept on that.

[John Kavanaugh]

I had understood that a member of a Nicklaus Signature course would have playing rights at all other Nicklaus Signature courses.  For me, I would find this to be a huge problem as you never know what kind of people get into any given course.  It seems to dilute the exclusive nature that the title Signature first implies.

[Mike_Cirba]

Always be skeptical of a course with the word "The" in the title.

[John Kavanaugh]

Always be skeptical of a course with the word "The" in the title.

The Riviera Country Club: A definitive history  I think the word the has a long and storied history.

[John Kavanaugh]

A link to the Golfweek Classic list where you will see The used often.  I am surprised that in the cast of The Riviera Country Club there appears to be an editorial error.  http://www.golfweek.com/lifestyles/golfweeksbest/classic/

[Mike_Cirba]

The Riviera Country Club: A definitive history  I think the word the has a long and storied history.

John,

For all I know, it may even be officially incorporated as "The Riv...", and Merion might be "The Merion Golf Club", etc..

It's when they start using it that you have to worry.

[Brad Klein]

Kavanaugh, you are being careless with your "research" and phrasing. There are only four clubs indicated with "The" on the Golfweek classic list. Four out of 100 is not "often." Riviera is not among them, rightly.

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

Frankly, "The Course at Yale" sounds ridiculous and more than a little pompous.

"The Country Club" gets a pass because they've used it since the dawn of time.

"The Olympic Club"....I prefer "Olympic", but whatever.

and "Minikahda" sounds much cooler than "The Minikahda Club".

If anything I think you proved my point.  

Thanks!

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob,
when I see "signature" I read "expensive".

Or, if I'm feeling a little insecure or shaky that day, I read "You're not wanted; this means YOU".

Probably a sound marketing approach, though. If "signature" registers as "expensive", I think the would-be consumer has 3 ways to react, i.e. "I want in", "Ah, not for me", or "Not for me, but I STILL want in; how can I get in? Please, someone let me in."

Grabbing the attention of 2 out of 3 potential customers with one little word seems pretty impressive!

Of course, I probably have no idea what I'm talking about; as I've said before, I couldn't market bottled water in a desert.  

Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

Kavanaugh, you are being careless with your "research" and phrasing. There are only four clubs indicated with "The" on the Golfweek classic list. Four out of 100 is not "often." Riviera is not among them, rightly.

Please see page 22 of Geoff's book on The Riviera Country Club.  I think 1927 was the year of the name change...I would type it all out if I was not on my phone because I had to drive home to get my copy of the book...careless, perhaps...accurate, without doubt.

[John Kavanaugh]

At some point the Club realized it was suffering a major identity crisis with its cumbersome name, "The Los Angeles Athletic Club Golf Course at Riviera Country Club" Finally, understanding that something had to go, Frank Garbutt decided the Riviera portion of the title was far more important than the LACC portion and thus the name, The Riviera Country Club, was created.

Please go to http://www.geoffshackelford.com/ where you will find a link to buy the excellent book where the above was found.  The club continues to this day to print The Riviera Country Club on their scorecards.  Funny isn't it how even this name is shorter and less pretentious than the original.

[Mike_Cirba]

"The Los Angeles Athletic Club Golf Course at Riviera Country Club"

John,

That's almost as bad as "Country Club of THE Poconos at Big Ridge" which is the 12-mile long golf trek (I shite you not) without a single good hole, or "The Bull at Pinehurst Farms", which is not only a horrible name but one that borders on plagiarism.  

[John Kavanaugh]

"The Los Angeles Athletic Club Golf Course at Riviera Country Club"

John,

That's almost as bad as "Country Club of THE Poconos at Big Ridge" which is the 12-mile long golf trek (I shite you not) without a single good hole, or "The Bull at Pinehurst Farms", which is not only a horrible name but one that borders on plagiarism.  

No wonder our fine country was soon after in a depression.

[Paul_Turner]

Yes I don't like The Alwoodley Golf Club or The Berkshire.  

But I don't mind The Addington perhaps because it distinguishes the course from Addington Court and Addington Palace.

[Greg Tallman]

I had understood that a member of a Nicklaus Signature course would have playing rights at all other Nicklaus Signature courses.  For me, I would find this to be a huge problem as you never know what kind of people get into any given course.  It seems to dilute the exclusive nature that the title Signature first implies.

Not sure where you got the idea from but you are not the only one who would believe this to be true.

It is not however true. Courses are obviously free to choose whether or not they wish to participate and offer discounts and such. Not sure this is the finest idea their company has come up with.

Does not work from wither a private or public standpoint.

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is where I got the idea..

(02/06/07) NORTH PALM BEACH, Fla. and UCLUELET, LONG BEACH B.C. - Developer Marine Drive Properties Ltd. announced today that Jack Nicklaus and the Nicklaus Companies have selected Wyndansea Oceanfront Golf Resort as the site for the Jack Nicklaus Golf Club of Canada. Wyndansea will become one of up to 25 clubs worldwide to share the unique distinction of being a Jack Nicklaus Golf Club, which was created as an exclusive access and reciprocity program for a limited number of elite Jack Nicklaus Signature Golf Courses located in ideal markets around the world. The program will be available to no more than 35 Members per club.

Here is a link for those with the stomach to read further: http://www.nicklaus.com/design/ucluelet/

[Paul Payne]

Mike,

"The Old Course"??

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