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Nick Church

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Honors or Holston Hills
« on: June 20, 2007, 06:47:17 PM »
I have the opportunity to play either The Honors Course or Holston Hills.

What would be your argument for one or the either?

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2007, 07:34:27 PM »
You will have a ball at Holsten Hills- a slightly touched DRoss course that the members loved to keep original.

The Honors is fun if you like a  Dye course. Conditons at the Honors will be great due to David Stones' care.
Same money- Go  the Honors.  

Double Money- HH

I am open,when is the Date?
Times flys and your the pilot !

michael j fay

Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2007, 07:48:34 PM »
both

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2007, 07:50:27 PM »
HH--nice but not great Ross in good but not great shape.  Not a big fan of the uphill 14 or even 18.  I think it is 11 or 12--long dogleg right par 4 that IS outstanding.

Also, still kinda ambivalent about the par 5 #7.

Honors--very good to excellent condition, caddies, great "experience" and a solid Dye golf course.

Cost at HH  ??? maybe $65
Cost at Honors (golf + caddie only)  around $150

I think a fair description may be that HH is a little below average (in terms of expectations) for a DRoss while the Honors may be a Dye course that "non-Dye" fans do enjoy and may be one of his more "traditional looking" courses.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 08:09:46 PM »
Cupit...what the hell are you smokin?  HH is my favorite DR course....I put it there with Mid pines and Pine Needles which I think are both more Dr and better than #2.....
AND the Honors is also one of my favorites but I could play HH everyday.
Crack kills.......
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Lawrence Largent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 08:16:07 PM »
Nick

 I take it your doing one of the TGA Member days. In my opinion and I've played both a ton. Holston Hills is the better of the two. Now I like more traditional courses but in my opinion 7 and 15 kill the Honors. I think they are out of place with the rest of the course. If you haven't played the Honors then do it because its harder to get on than Holston. Your pro can call about any time and get you on Holston. One added note Holston Hills is the best visual course from the tee I've ever played.

Lawrence


Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 08:24:04 PM »
HH is nice--just nothing that gets me too excited.  Played it in college three times and have been invited back 4 times to some tournament they host with UT and I was so impressed I've decided to stay home :D

OK, maybe that was harsh but if HH is one of Ross' best then I don't see what all the fuss is about.  Better than #2?  Maybe we could share a pipe ;)

Again, now that most everyone can hit a driver 225 yards, what is so great about the "choice" off of #7?  20 years ago it was driver 7 iron for good players--how's that a great par 5?

Do you really think the uphill holes--9, 14 and 18 are that great?  What's with all the funky humps coming back down the hill on #15?  That moonscape looks completely out of place on the land and even the rest of the course to me.

I'll even go so far as to say that Monroe Golf Club in Pittsford, NY is way better--I'd fly up there instead of driving to Knoxville anytime.  I like Linville at least as much though they have some greens that are just too severe today.

For full disclosure I am a member at The Honors and will admit that the atmosphere of caddies is a big reason I enjoy playing there--I just don't get excited about "cart golf".  I do enjoy the course too.

Back to my smokes ;D


Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 08:25:18 PM »
Nick

 I take it your doing one of the TGA Member days. In my opinion and I've played both a ton. Holston Hills is the better of the two. Now I like more traditional courses but in my opinion 7 and 15 kill the Honors. I think they are out of place with the rest of the course. If you haven't played the Honors then do it because its harder to get on than Holston. Your pro can call about any time and get you on Holston. One added note Holston Hills is the best visual course from the tee I've ever played.

Lawrence



7 is horrible looking.

I don't mind 15 though--what don't you like there?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2007, 08:32:36 PM »
HH is nice--just nothing that gets me too excited.  Played it in college three times and have been invited back 4 times to some tournament they host with UT and I was so impressed I've decided to stay home :D

OK, maybe that was harsh but if HH is one of Ross' best then I don't see what all the fuss is about.  Better than #2?  Maybe we could share a pipe ;)

Again, now that most everyone can hit a driver 225 yards, what is so great about the "choice" off of #7?  20 years ago it was driver 7 iron for good players--how's that a great par 5?

Do you really think the uphill holes--9, 14 and 18 are that great?  What's with all the funky humps coming back down the hill on #15?  That moonscape looks completely out of place on the land and even the rest of the course to me.

I'll even go so far as to say that Monroe Golf Club in Pittsford, NY is way better--I'd fly up there instead of driving to Knoxville anytime.  I like Linville at least as much though they have some greens that are just too severe today.

For full disclosure I am a member at The Honors and will admit that the atmosphere of caddies is a big reason I enjoy playing there--I just don't get excited about "cart golf".  I do enjoy the course too.

Back to my smokes ;D


Well your fat buddy agrees with meand he is an expert announcer....he even won a college tournament there..
...yep better DR than #2....IMHO 2 has gone over the top.....
AND I also love the Honors......and i do understand your taste for caddies....no cart golf...but as an athlete I usually walk and carry my bag..which one can do at HH.....OH...and most every ODG course today changes their par 5s to 4s during tournament play.....same could go for HH....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Brent Hutto

Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2007, 09:11:05 PM »
I've never seen the Honors course but I reckon I'd like it a lot. I have played at Holston Hills and will return the first time I have a chance. I'm not a fan of caddies in general (the outstanding ones at CPC being the exception) but I'm not sure what the "cart golf" reference has to do with Holston Hills. You might find a more walkable course if you looked really hard but not by much.

There's a certain class of small-town country club courses built in the first half of the 20th century that some of us really appreciate. Donald Ross routed and/or designed a good number of them and Holston Hills is a standout among the ones I've played. I understand that some people want something a bit jazzier or more modern and there's no accounting for taste but if you really didn't enjoy Holston Hills...well, you're coming from a frame of reference I can't quite wrap my mind around.

RE Blanks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2007, 10:00:42 PM »
Nick, it depends on what you enjoy.  If you like to be wowed by caddies, privacy, scented towels, outstanding conditioning, and a feel of an exclusiveness, then play the Honors.  If you like playing great old stratigic golf courses, play Holston Hills.  The most underrated course I have ever seen.


Tom Renli

Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2007, 10:25:36 PM »
RE, summed it up well "golf experience" v "honest classic golf course".  HH for me.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 10:51:15 PM »
Chris,

12 and 14 at HH didn't get you excited? 1? 3? 18 green? Sorry, just saw your post, but 14 uphill? Isn't that the par 3? 12 might be one of the best holes I have ever played.

I fell in love with Holston Hills and it is SEVERELY underrated, but The Honors is a SPECIAL place and their really is no choice here. If you are an amateur golfer and I assume you are, you have to go, it is a shrine to amateur golf. I like 15 at The Honors a lot. The Honors simply has things that you haven't seen before, while HH doesn't.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 11:00:48 PM by Glenn Spencer »

Glenn Spencer

Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 10:58:26 PM »
Cupit...what the hell are you smokin?  HH is my favorite DR course....I put it there with Mid pines and Pine Needles which I think are both more Dr and better than #2.....
AND the Honors is also one of my favorites but I could play HH everyday.
Crack kills.......

Mike,

Better than Dayton CC? ;D ;D ;D ;D  You really like HH better than #2? THAT is strong. You have seen the Ross at Inverness, right? Scioto? Holston is fabulous, but I think I would need to see her in an evening gown, instead of jeans, maybe.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 11:03:19 PM »
Cupit...what the hell are you smokin?  HH is my favorite DR course....I put it there with Mid pines and Pine Needles which I think are both more Dr and better than #2.....
AND the Honors is also one of my favorites but I could play HH everyday.
Crack kills.......


Mike,

Better than Dayton CC? ;D ;D ;D ;D  You really like HH better than #2? THAT is strong. You have seen the Ross at Inverness, right? Scioto? Holston is fabulous, but I think I would need to see her in an evening gown, instead of jeans, maybe.

Glenn,
It may not be as good as Dayton but I think it is up there....let me put
it this way..my favorite DR bermuda grass course......AND I do like it better than #2 because it can be played everyday by the average player w/o wearing one's self out.....
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 11:05:46 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2007, 11:34:52 PM »
It's a push in my book, with a slight edge to The Honors based upon the availability of Tennents in the bar.  The Honors is a pair of broken in Gucci loafers while Holston Hills is a pair of Bass Weejuns with a hole in the sole.  

At Holston Hills the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, while The Honors has fantastic parts (the 12th is one of the great short par fours in the country and the one-shot 14th is so, so sexy).  

Dye defends par at every turn at The Honors while Ross puts a premium on keeping approach shots below the hole at Holston Hills.

The Honors is a brute but David Stone brings out the best in nature that the Volunteer State has to offer.  Dye's shaping is ingenous.  

Holston Hills is vintage Ross with greens sited on high spots, thereby exagerating their cants.  The par five 5th is a great example of how to build a hole on flat land and the uphill 12th is a great example of a Ross hole that plays longer than the card if the rise in the fairway can't be carried off the tee.

Have fun.  

« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 10:41:06 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2007, 08:05:30 AM »
Chris,

12 and 14 at HH didn't get you excited? 1? 3? 18 green? Sorry, just saw your post, but 14 uphill? Isn't that the par 3? 12 might be one of the best holes I have ever played.

I fell in love with Holston Hills and it is SEVERELY underrated, but The Honors is a SPECIAL place and their really is no choice here. If you are an amateur golfer and I assume you are, you have to go, it is a shrine to amateur golf. I like 15 at The Honors a lot. The Honors simply has things that you haven't seen before, while HH doesn't.

I may have gotten a few of the holes mixed up but the hole I wasn't thrilled with on the back was like 14 or 15--very uphill hole.

The "cart golf" comment was NOT meant as a slight against HH or 99% of every course out there.  I only meant to emphasize that I really like walking and playing with a caddie and The Honors offers this.

Mike,

"Athlete" ???  I like the caveat of "my favorite BERMUDA DR course".  (And guys, Bermuda can be and is a terrific surface to play on--just found it interesting that MY seemed to backpedal, a little ;))

Also, had I ever won anything except a Jr. Club Championship back in 1984 I might rate it higher like Fat Boy myself ;D

HH is very good and if I was in the area I'd play--I just would not go out of my way to get there.

I do remember HH's par 3's being excellent.  I might favor them over the 3's at the Honors although I did not think the par 5's were anything great (maybe the first one on the front was my favorite of the group).

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2007, 08:25:15 AM »
Nick, it depends on what you enjoy.  If you like to be wowed by caddies, privacy, scented towels, outstanding conditioning, and a feel of an exclusiveness, then play the Honors.  If you like playing great old stratigic golf courses, play Holston Hills.  The most underrated course I have ever seen.



"Privacy and exclusiveness" ???  Unaccompanied guests have been able to play there for years during the week and the membership is quite frankly a role model for their willingness to open their course up to Amateur golf events and "give up" the course anytime for these tournaments--much more so than other clubs.

"Scented towels"  :o  Gosh I don't know what you've been sniffing but I hope it wasn't the towels ;D  Actually i find many items at the Honors very nice but almost Spartan.  Golf ONLY--no pool, no tennis, no evening dining, lunch served from 11-3, no beverage cart(s).  Golf and lunch.  Even staying overnight is a night spent on a small twin bed looking forward to the golf.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2007, 11:12:50 AM »
There is no wrong answer.  If you've played a lot of Ross, play The Honors.  If you've played a lot of Dye, play Holston Hills.  

If you're a double-digit capper, you'll likely get pummeled at The Honors, but you'll enjoy every minute of it.  Dye will boldly snatch strokes - Ross will stealthily steal them.  

Mike

Caveat, if Sam and Andy's deli was still open in Knoxville, Holston Hills would win in a landslide.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 11:14:32 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2007, 11:25:09 AM »
Nick,

Thanks to Ran's profiles, let me make this an easier choice!  

The 12th at The Honors from the tee:


The beautiful 14th at The Honors from the tee:


Nifty fairway bunkers at Holston Hills' 5th:


The monstrous 12th at Holston Hills:


 8)
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2007, 03:45:43 PM »
I'll go ahead and toss my two cents in, not that there is much new ground to cover.

I lived in Knoxville for 5 years, played both and have gone back and walked around each for a closer look multiple times after.

It is really interesting that two courses that are very different "products" can both result in greatness.  And, yes, both are great.

Nick, I would use this approach regarding which to play - look at which would be tougher to access "off the street".  Without arguing which is better, it is pretty easy to conclude that The Honors is harder to get to play (though they have always been spectacular at accomodating someone who just wanted to walk around and look at the course).  This should weigh in on your decision.  Holston Hills, from my understanding, has a pretty inviting policy regarding outside play, so you could probably get on there another time.

All of that aside, both have really great qualities; and don't let anyone fool you into thinking The Honors is only about the "experience", the golf course stands up on its own merit.

#5, 12, 15 and 18 really reveal Pete Dye's talent with all types of 4 pars.  In fact, #7 is actually a really good hole, it just looks like it would be more at home at PGA West that in the Tennessee foothills.  I still have not heard a reason why its lake edge has wooden bulkheading while the rest of the course has more natural looking native stone work.  Toss in some great par 5's and a solid set of par 3's (14 and 16 are way beyond solid, though in my book) and you have a really great course.  David Stone's presentation of the course only makes everything better.

Holston, like others have said, is a course that seems better taken as a whole rather than individually.  Plenty of good holes come to mind, though, like 2, 3, 8 (a scary little par 3), 12, 13 and the funky 15.

The real end result is that you won't feel like you lost out either way.

Keith.

Nick Church

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Honors or Holston Hills
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2007, 09:38:50 PM »
Thanks everyone for your help & advice.

I'm sure either course will tear my vanity single-digit handicap to shreads.

That said...  I was leaning heavily towards Honors, mostly due to the difficulty with access.

Now, however, my club's Member-Guest is the same weekend as the TGA's Member Play Days at Honors.

So, it looks like I will try to play Holston in October.... perfect since I'm a Vol fan.  I did get to see some of Holston when I was  a grad intern for UT's Men's Athletic Department.  The greens looked gnarly.  (Which means I'm excited to play 'em.)

Thanks for the pictures too... Dumb me, I didn't think to look at Ran's course guides.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 09:40:05 PM by Nick Church »