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Rob Marshall

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Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2022, 05:23:30 PM »
I still remember an article in Golf Digest many years ago when Nicklaus was talking about what a great swing Tom Purtzer had. The problem he said Purtzer had was he hit it so straight he couldn't take one side of the course out of play.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

David Ober

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Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2022, 05:29:06 PM »
I still remember an article in Golf Digest many years ago when Nicklaus was talking about what a great swing Tom Purtzer had. The problem he said Purtzer had was he hit it so straight he couldn't take one side of the course out of play.


Yeah, and that's just silly. Of course he can. He has to do it solely by aim/starting line, rather than shape, if he hits a "straight ball." All players have relatively even "shotgun" patterns of misses away from their aiming point. Purtzer was no exception.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2022, 09:23:55 AM »
Eliminating one side is not really bogus.
Yes it is. If Nicklaus was to "eliminate the left side of the golf course," then he'd be moving his shot pattern more into the right rough than he needs to be. He'd be hitting more balls into the rough instead of the fairway than if his shot pattern was centered with more density in the middle of the fairway.

What he was trying to say, if I had to guess, is that he was playing one shot type. And so his ball would never finish left of his start line.

But his start line had to be left enough to account for his fade, and sometimes he'd hit it straighter and sometimes he'd fade it a bit more.

In other words, if 100 below scratch golfers / pros play a golf hole with water right off the tee and not a single one hits it in the water all day because there's enough room left to not do so, and then you take 100 random 12-cappers and have them play the same hole, many of them will hit the ball in the water, no matter what they do or where they aim.
Of course, but that's different than what Nicklaus is talking about. Nicklaus said he "eliminated the left side of the golf course."

In other words, Nicklaus was talking about playing a fade almost exclusively, not literally never hitting a ball left. "The left side of the golf course" means "left of my start line."

Edit: I replied before scrolling to see Mike Felton made a similar argument. "Eliminating one side of the golf course" is bogus. "Eliminating a double miss" is not. It's just "my ball always finishes on or right of its start line" for a righty fader, etc.

And the issue I have with calling it "angles" is that it's more about the short game, and short-siding yourself. If you want to lump "short siding yourself" into the "angles" bucket, then I think you're making that bucket about as wide as the "anywhere left" angle on #10 at Riviera just to suit yourself here.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 09:36:14 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2022, 09:31:52 AM »
For what it's worth, that is how Jim Colbert played, although he would trade shot patterns as the hole and wind dictated.  But, he typically aimed at the outer FW or Green edge and curved back to the middle.  He didn't aim out over the rough with his "At worst, I will hit it straight" shot setup, accepting that a straight shot still left him on the intended green or fw.  He would adjust his grip or stance a bit to assure a fade (or draw) and depending on how aggressive he would want to be, either plan to curve a bit more to the middle, or perhaps all the way to a pin on the far side, risking the possible over play into a low side hazard.  He felt that was a bad play and he deserved to be punished.


As mentioned, the basic strategy is often more subtle and complex than that, i.e., considering what green contours he might use to get to the pin without trying to fly it in close.  He also figured the wind, lie angle, target angle, etc. into his final shot pattern.  Jack and Tiger were much less reluctant to come over a hazard with their preferred shot pattern.  But, in reality, only a small number of pros of that generation played alternate shots to fit the hole, and most tried to fit the hole to their shot patterns.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Ober

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Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2022, 11:54:16 AM »
Eliminating one side is not really bogus.
Yes it is. If Nicklaus was to "eliminate the left side of the golf course," then he'd be moving his shot pattern more into the right rough than he needs to be. He'd be hitting more balls into the rough instead of the fairway than if his shot pattern was centered with more density in the middle of the fairway.

What he was trying to say, if I had to guess, is that he was playing one shot type. And so his ball would never finish left of his start line.

But his start line had to be left enough to account for his fade, and sometimes he'd hit it straighter and sometimes he'd fade it a bit more.

In other words, if 100 below scratch golfers / pros play a golf hole with water right off the tee and not a single one hits it in the water all day because there's enough room left to not do so, and then you take 100 random 12-cappers and have them play the same hole, many of them will hit the ball in the water, no matter what they do or where they aim.
Of course, but that's different than what Nicklaus is talking about. Nicklaus said he "eliminated the left side of the golf course."

In other words, Nicklaus was talking about playing a fade almost exclusively, not literally never hitting a ball left. "The left side of the golf course" means "left of my start line."

Edit: I replied before scrolling to see Mike Felton made a similar argument. "Eliminating one side of the golf course" is bogus. "Eliminating a double miss" is not. It's just "my ball always finishes on or right of its start line" for a righty fader, etc.

And the issue I have with calling it "angles" is that it's more about the short game, and short-siding yourself. If you want to lump "short siding yourself" into the "angles" bucket, then I think you're making that bucket about as wide as the "anywhere left" angle on #10 at Riviera just to suit yourself here.


And ... eliminating the double-cross helps you to eliminate one side of the course more effectively. As I demonstrated. It doesn't matter that your miss on the other side is larger -- you eliminated one side by using that to your advantage. Most players simply cannot do that.


Good players absolutely eliminate (or virtually eliminate) water or penal hazards (one side of the course) all the time. And they do it by picking better targets (aim) and by greatly reducing their percentage of double-crosses for those who work the ball significantly.


Kenny Perry aims at water right and moves the ball away from it. When water is left, he has to often aim deep into the right rough to take the "proper" line for him -- especially with wind coming from the right.


He is not eliminating his shotgun pattern, certainly. In other words, he is not eliminating the left side of his shot pattern. However, in the final analysis, he still is taking one side of the golf course out of play.


Semantics.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 12:06:21 PM by David Ober »

Kalen Braley

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Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2022, 12:44:27 PM »
David,

100% agree on your comments so far and I don't understand why some think eliminating one side is not a thing.

For example, on my home course in the Spokane area, there is a par 4 with OB down the entire right side.  From the middle of the fairway it was 50 yards to the fence right, and the first several times I played it, I aimed middle of fairway and had the occasional slice Out of Bounds.   But then I realized there was not much trouble left of the fairway, other than a few trees and rough, so I started aiming at the rough line on the left (80 yards away from the OB).

Yes i had the occasional ball end up under the trees where I couldn't reach the green, but as a crap 15 capper at the time, I never hit another ball OOB on this hole because as bad as my slices can be, they almost never slice 80 yards to the right.  And when i did slice 50 yards, i still found the right side of the fairway instead of a reload and hitting 3 on the tee.

This isn't complicated, its just basic strategy to taking big numbers out of play, and of course the pros do this.




JESII

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Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2022, 12:58:25 PM »
But there are two different conversations going on here...or at two least people talking past each other.


The strategic decision to try to never see a ball moving right to left is wholly different than the decision to never miss to the left (or right...).


When a player says they want to eliminate one side of the golf course that is absolutely them making the decision to build their game to move the ball the other direction on every shot (or at least every tee shot). There is comfort in knowing the ball will always move at least a little bit one way. A great number of all time players built their games on this. Some of the very best (Tiger for example) are/were able to effectively move it both ways but I'd argue more of the top 100 are married to one shot shape as opposed to looking at each hole and figuring out which shape works best.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2022, 12:59:37 PM »
David,

100% agree on your comments so far and I don't understand why some think eliminating one side is not a thing.

For example, on my home course in the Spokane area, there is a par 4 with OB down the entire right side.  From the middle of the fairway it was 50 yards to the fence right, and the first several times I played it, I aimed middle of fairway and had the occasional slice Out of Bounds.   But then I realized there was not much trouble left of the fairway, other than a few trees and rough, so I started aiming at the rough line on the left (80 yards away from the OB).

Yes i had the occasional ball end up under the trees where I couldn't reach the green, but as a crap 15 capper at the time, I never hit another ball OOB on this hole because as bad as my slices can be, they almost never slice 80 yards to the right.  And when i did slice 50 yards, i still found the right side of the fairway instead of a reload and hitting 3 on the tee.

This isn't complicated, its just basic strategy to taking big numbers out of play, and of course the pros do this.


Yup. Fawcett is completely correct about shot patterns being immutably equal left-right. But the way he applies that fact to the concept of taking one side of the course out of play is missing the boat, IMHO. It's unnecessarily confusing/confounding to people who do this all the time.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2022, 01:07:54 PM »
But there are two different conversations going on here...or at two least people talking past each other.

The strategic decision to try to never see a ball moving right to left is wholly different than the decision to never miss to the left (or right...).

When a player says they want to eliminate one side of the golf course that is absolutely them making the decision to build their game to move the ball the other direction on every shot (or at least every tee shot). There is comfort in knowing the ball will always move at least a little bit one way. A great number of all time players built their games on this. Some of the very best (Tiger for example) are/were able to effectively move it both ways but I'd argue more of the top 100 are married to one shot shape as opposed to looking at each hole and figuring out which shape works best.


And this doesn't just apply to good players.  As one who can rarely work the ball right to left,(I've only hit a handful of successful draws on the golf course in my life, and the shot shape was always dictated to me) it completely makes sense for me to always aim up the left side of the fairway, and or the left side of the green for the approach with anything more than a 8 iron in hand.

Even if I'm not trying to eliminate one side of the course, the goal is always to ask, what should I do to give me the best chance to get the ball to end up at the intended spot.

David Ober

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Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2022, 01:18:38 PM »
But there are two different conversations going on here...or at two least people talking past each other.


The strategic decision to try to never see a ball moving right to left is wholly different than the decision to never miss to the left (or right...).


When a player says they want to eliminate one side of the golf course that is absolutely them making the decision to build their game to move the ball the other direction on every shot (or at least every tee shot). There is comfort in knowing the ball will always move at least a little bit one way. A great number of all time players built their games on this. Some of the very best (Tiger for example) are/were able to effectively move it both ways but I'd argue more of the top 100 are married to one shot shape as opposed to looking at each hole and figuring out which shape works best.


Yes, you can look at it that way, but you do not need to hit the ball one way to "take one side out of play" on an individual shot. That is my point.


Kenny Perry (Jack's antithesis off the tee) can also take the left side out of play even though he hits a big draw! He just does it in a different way than Jack did (by aiming farther right). All pros are adept at taking both sides out of play when necessary. Some more than others, of course. And some better at one side than the other.


Also, I believe that Fawcett, et al. have shown that no one really is able to do that. Meaning that DJ, et al., miss equally left and right from their intended line, no matter what they do.

JESII

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Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2022, 01:21:05 PM »
Intended finish line?  Or intended starting line?

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2022, 01:24:46 PM »
And ... eliminating the double-cross helps you to eliminate one side of the course more effectively.
No. Again, the context in which Nicklaus said it is that he eliminates the LEFT side of the golf course. And doing that — unless there is more trouble on the left side of every hole — would be dumb.

He's still gonna hit balls to the left side of the golf course, because that's where his ball starts, and when he hits one that doesn't fade quite as much… it's gonna miss "left." Hell, Nicklaus hit it left on the 71st in 1986 at ANGC. He didn't "eliminate the left side of the golf course." He simply eliminated draws/hooks.

You can say "semantics" but the wording is important, because there's a big difference between "Jack eliminated the left side of the golf course" and "Jack made sure he played the same pattern every time - a ball that finishes right of his start line." Those are different things.

The strategic decision to try to never see a ball moving right to left is wholly different than the decision to never miss to the left (or right...).

Yes. They're two different things.

Jack hit plenty of shots to the "left side of the golf course," because truly "eliminating" it would be dumb.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2022, 01:42:59 PM »
And ... eliminating the double-cross helps you to eliminate one side of the course more effectively.
No. Again, the context in which Nicklaus said it is that he eliminates the LEFT side of the golf course. And doing that — unless there is more trouble on the left side of every hole — would be dumb.

He's still gonna hit balls to the left side of the golf course, because that's where his ball starts, and when he hits one that doesn't fade quite as much… it's gonna miss "left." Hell, Nicklaus hit it left on the 71st in 1986 at ANGC. He didn't "eliminate the left side of the golf course." He simply eliminated draws/hooks.

You can say "semantics" but the wording is important, because there's a big difference between "Jack eliminated the left side of the golf course" and "Jack made sure he played the same pattern every time - a ball that finishes right of his start line." Those are different things.

The strategic decision to try to never see a ball moving right to left is wholly different than the decision to never miss to the left (or right...).

Yes. They're two different things.

Jack hit plenty of shots to the "left side of the golf course," because truly "eliminating" it would be dumb.



Agree on Nicklaus. Completely. Not talking about statements like his about every shot. I'm talking about not hitting the ball into hazards or water or OB. This is one of the quickest ways for 12's to become 6's. 6's to become 2's, and 2's to become +2's.


Tour pros hit ridiculously few OB balls in a season because they know how to completely remove OB from the equation by taking it out of play when necessary. Same with water or penalty zones left or right.


They simply aim better and execute better which allows them to virtually take a side out of play when faced with big penalties.


Ask yourself this:


How many Tour pros hit a ball OB right on the road hole off the tee?


How many random 12-cappers will hit the ball OB right on the road hole off the tee?


Pros take OB right out of play on the road hole regardless of their shot shape or pattern. They simply don't miss there. They take it out of play.

Kenny Perry aims farther right and takes it out of play than Bruce Lietzke did. But they both take it out of play by aim and execution and virtual elimination of the double-cross.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2022, 01:55:03 PM »
And ... eliminating the double-cross helps you to eliminate one side of the course more effectively.
No. Again, the context in which Nicklaus said it is that he eliminates the LEFT side of the golf course. And doing that — unless there is more trouble on the left side of every hole — would be dumb.

He's still gonna hit balls to the left side of the golf course, because that's where his ball starts, and when he hits one that doesn't fade quite as much… it's gonna miss "left." Hell, Nicklaus hit it left on the 71st in 1986 at ANGC. He didn't "eliminate the left side of the golf course." He simply eliminated draws/hooks.

You can say "semantics" but the wording is important, because there's a big difference between "Jack eliminated the left side of the golf course" and "Jack made sure he played the same pattern every time - a ball that finishes right of his start line." Those are different things.



Yes, we are talking about two different things. My apologies. Nicklaus was brought up early and I skipped to OB and Hazards and taking those sides out of play.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2022, 04:36:30 PM »
Yes, we are talking about two different things. My apologies. Nicklaus was brought up early and I skipped to OB and Hazards and taking those sides out of play.
Okay.

And yes, we agree on the penalty strokes stuff. From LSW:

Quote
PGA Tour players often go several tournaments without taking a single penalty stroke. Some high-level club players will go weeks without hitting a ball in the water or out of bounds. Yet ask the foursomes teeing off on a Saturday morning and you’re likely to hear that most golfers incurred penalty strokes the last time they played golf!

What’s our point in comparing PGA Tour players and expert- level club players to average golfers? One group understands that penalty strokes should be avoided at almost all costs while the other clearly does not. You may not be able to strike your 5-iron or your driver as pure as Dustin Johnson but you can plan to eliminate penalty shots the same way he does. Out of bounds, water hazards, and lost or unplayable balls are the black death within the whites and greys of your Decision Map.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2022, 09:48:10 PM »
Yes, we are talking about two different things. My apologies. Nicklaus was brought up early and I skipped to OB and Hazards and taking those sides out of play.
Okay.

And yes, we agree on the penalty strokes stuff. From LSW:

Quote
PGA Tour players often go several tournaments without taking a single penalty stroke. Some high-level club players will go weeks without hitting a ball in the water or out of bounds. Yet ask the foursomes teeing off on a Saturday morning and you’re likely to hear that most golfers incurred penalty strokes the last time they played golf!

What’s our point in comparing PGA Tour players and expert- level club players to average golfers? One group understands that penalty strokes should be avoided at almost all costs while the other clearly does not. You may not be able to strike your 5-iron or your driver as pure as Dustin Johnson but you can plan to eliminate penalty shots the same way he does. Out of bounds, water hazards, and lost or unplayable balls are the black death within the whites and greys of your Decision Map.


I am a 7 handicap. Last weekend I aimed down the right edge of a 60-yard wide fairway because there was a creek on the left and no real trouble down the right. I pull-hooked it into the hazard anyway. Is that me not understanding how penalty shots affect my score? I think it’s me just not being as good as the other players, who would rarely miss their target by 60 yards.


I do agree that as a group we amateurs don’t take the penalty stroke out of play enough. But I don’t think you can chalk up any penalty strokes just to poor strategy. Lower skill plays a part!






Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2022, 09:50:37 PM »
I do agree that as a group we amateurs don’t take the penalty stroke out of play enough. But I don’t think you can chalk up any penalty strokes just to poor strategy. Lower skill plays a part!
Of course.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strokes Gained and Angles on the PGA Tour
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2022, 02:21:16 AM »
Yes, we are talking about two different things. My apologies. Nicklaus was brought up early and I skipped to OB and Hazards and taking those sides out of play.
Okay.

And yes, we agree on the penalty strokes stuff. From LSW:

Quote
PGA Tour players often go several tournaments without taking a single penalty stroke. Some high-level club players will go weeks without hitting a ball in the water or out of bounds. Yet ask the foursomes teeing off on a Saturday morning and you’re likely to hear that most golfers incurred penalty strokes the last time they played golf!

What’s our point in comparing PGA Tour players and expert- level club players to average golfers? One group understands that penalty strokes should be avoided at almost all costs while the other clearly does not. You may not be able to strike your 5-iron or your driver as pure as Dustin Johnson but you can plan to eliminate penalty shots the same way he does. Out of bounds, water hazards, and lost or unplayable balls are the black death within the whites and greys of your Decision Map.


I am a 7 handicap. Last weekend I aimed down the right edge of a 60-yard wide fairway because there was a creek on the left and no real trouble down the right. I pull-hooked it into the hazard anyway. Is that me not understanding how penalty shots affect my score? I think it’s me just not being as good as the other players, who would rarely miss their target by 60 yards.


I do agree that as a group we amateurs don’t take the penalty stroke out of play enough. But I don’t think you can chalk up any penalty strokes just to poor strategy. Lower skill plays a part!


For sure.


Do you entertain improving significantly?