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Jay Flemma

Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« on: May 15, 2007, 03:46:36 PM »
I got into it with a guy about how I think Sawgrass is a better course than Bethpage Black  I gravitate heavily to Sawgrass' outstanding collection of greens, alternate shot requirements and routing.  BB's routing is also strong, no question, but I thinkn the greens - 15 aside - are not as interesting and that it's main defens is its brute length.

Your thoughts?  Sawgrass or BB?

wsmorrison

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2007, 03:58:12 PM »
Those two are more like cruiserweights that would struggle in the heavyweight division  ;)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 04:33:19 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mitch Hantman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2007, 04:07:48 PM »
I would like to "weigh" in on this one.  Bethpage Black's main defense is not brute length.  It's defense includes it's incredible bunkering, tee shot angles, contouring of the ground, and elevation changes that result in varying risks for the player.  True, the greens are by and large flattish for Tillie, but tee to green may be his toughest test!

Phil_the_Author

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2007, 04:21:41 PM »
Interesting comment made by Johnny Miller on Saturday during the telecast - "These greens (Sawgrass) are the flattest greens ever for any championship course..."

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2007, 05:15:17 PM »
I haven't played either one, although I have played PGA West Stadium, which is almost identical to Sawgrass. But based on how they look to me, BB looks like it would give me a long day.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jay Flemma

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2007, 05:59:51 PM »
Interesting comment made by Johnny Miller on Saturday during the telecast - "These greens (Sawgrass) are the flattest greens ever for any championship course..."

Miller's drinking drano if he thinks Sawgrass' greens are flat.  What are BB's then, inverted?

Tee to green, it may be his toughest test...and the stretch of 2-6 has great angles hole shapes and bunkering.  But dont sell sawgrass short on that.  Great risk reward par-5s...a great cape hole for the finisher, 4 is as great hole and the golfer is always pff balance with the routing.  You just can't bomb driver all the time.  At BB you NEED to bomb driver all too frequently...

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2007, 08:20:55 PM »
It's not fair to compare a Florida theme course designed for the PGA TOUR to BB.  BB wins 6 and 5.

PGA west looks "natural" compared to TPC, PGA W wins 6 and 5 over TPC; loses  3/2 to BB.

I think Miller said the greens were the flattest within 10 feet of the pin, or something like that. They were on Sunday!
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 09:02:14 PM »
Interesting comment made by Johnny Miller on Saturday during the telecast - "These greens (Sawgrass) are the flattest greens ever for any championship course..."

The hack known as Johnny Miller said something like that...I just can't believe it.   ;D ;D

Jay Flemma

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2007, 07:54:36 PM »
It's not fair to compare a Florida theme course designed for the PGA TOUR to BB.  BB wins 6 and 5.

PGA west looks "natural" compared to TPC, PGA W wins 6 and 5 over TPC; loses  3/2 to BB.

I think Miller said the greens were the flattest within 10 feet of the pin, or something like that. They were on Sunday!

They did take some of the contour out of the greens...especially on my fave hole for green contour - 4.  But I can't agree Gary that its a Florida theme course.  There is alot of architecture under the surface...like the alternate shot patterns...like making you play different clybs off the tee...like the routing being strong.  What DON'T you like about it?

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2007, 09:11:13 PM »
I haven't played either...but if I could pick which to play first I'd pick Sawgrass
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jay Flemma

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2007, 09:23:57 PM »
Bill I'm confused...sawgrass w/ ocean course...is that the comparison you meant?

I only choce Sawgrass vs. BB because another writer and I were having the debate...

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2007, 09:59:48 PM »
Having played neither, I'd like to play both.  I might opt for Sawgrass first to see if I could post a better number than my 55 I shot there on the Sega Genesis.  If I didn't have to spend the night in my car, I'd probably play Bethpage Black first.

I'm still bummed that I never played BB while living in CT.  I scheduled a day off of work for the trip without doing any research, and learned about 24 hours before my trip that I scheduled the day off for the same day as the NY Open... lesson learned.  If you are going to play a course where you can't make a tee time in advance - check the event schedule first.  Fortunately, I found out before making the drive down.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2007, 10:07:50 PM »
I haven't played Sawgrass. I would be happy never crossing the road at Bethpage. Tough choice for me, I have loved most of the good Pete Dye that I have seen. My guess is that Sawgrass would be a touch more exciting, but I still think I would lean toward the Black.

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2007, 10:12:37 PM »
Played them both.

Loved them both.


But Bethpage is hands-down the better of the two, for many reasons.


BB is a big brute - TPC is just plain hard.  Playing with one ball?  BB wins.  TPC is not as fun, especially if you enjoy getting beat up by a 'fair' golf course.  BB is a lot like Carnoustie in that way.  Both courses have relatively flat greens, but BB has more movement.

My vote is for BB over TPC.

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2007, 10:20:45 PM »
Phil said, regarding Johnny Miller's comment:

>"These greens (Sawgrass) are the flattest greens ever for any championship course..."


I heard this too and started to think that he might be right.   These greens ARE flat - and were made flatter in the recent renovation.

But this is the trend in modern architecture.  BB has very flat greens - were they always that way or did Rees make them flatter?  Medinah was beat on by the pros last fall, when any normal mortal knows just how difficult this course is.  But why was that?  Could it be because Rees made the greens flatter to accommodate today's faster green speeds?  

Tee to green, Medinah, Bethpage and TPC are all real ball-busters.  However, once you get to the green, the professionals don't seem to be challenged with the flat greens at these places - even if you were able to get them up to very fast speeds.

Maybe for the next go-around at these great courses, a little interest in the greens would serve them well?

« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 11:34:42 PM by Paul Richards »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Matt_Ward

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2007, 09:59:02 AM »
Paul, et al:

There's this ignorance that BB has ALL flat greens. That's not really the case. No less than six holes on the course do have some interesting and at times quite pronounced movements.

For example, you have the following ...

#8, #11, #12, #14, #15, #17

I am not suggesting that BB has greens on par with such titans as Oakmont or Winged Foot, to name just two, but the course is not so rudimentary in the greens area as many might believe at first glance.

FYI -- I too see BB with the edge over TPC / Sawgrass.


Phil_the_Author

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2007, 11:12:25 AM »
Paul asked, "BB has very flat greens - were they always that way or did Rees make them flatter?"

No they weren't and no Rees didn't, but the story of the Black's greens is far more complex.

When the Black was restored, the greens, with minor exceptions other than 18, were left at the dimensions that they had become in the late 90's. This was done because no one could verify what the actual dimensions were as originally designed.

Because of this decision, the rebuilt bunkers were moved closer to a number of the green surfaces as they were too far away. Some had suggested that this was caused by their moving outward due to poor maintenance.

The truth is very different.

After much research I believe that I have uncovered information (photographs, etc...) that chows the greens to have been, by & large, greater in size.

When Tilly designed greens he would more often than not define the green dimensions along the crest lines of the moundings he used in creating the complexes. By doing this he would then run the green surface up the face of the contour, sometimes even to the very crest itself.

This can be clearly seen in photographs found in the three books of his writings compiled by Rick Wolffe. Some examples:

The Course Beautiful:
p.47 - the Duel Hole of SFGC
p.58 - the 4th green at Cedar Crest
p.87 - 12th green at Golden Valley
p.88 - 4th green at Baltusrol Lower

We all know that bethpage suffered for years from poor maintenance, and over the years this resulted in the greens on the Black being shrunken in size. By the time of the restoration, some of the putting surfaces were now as much as 10 to 12 feet away from bunkers that were once tucked into the sides of them.

By moving the bunkers into the greens and only minimally reclaiming putting surfaces, areas that were originally parts of the green now serve as rough and fringe. These are also areas where dynamic undulations and elevation changes exist even now. Returning these areas to putting surfaces would change the entire aspect of how the greens on the Black are viewed.

A fwe weeks ago I spent an afternoon riding around the course with Craig Courier talking about this subject and examining most of the greens. We identified a number of areas where green surfaces should be restored, and if it is done will allow for some incredible new hole locations, especially for the 2009 Open.

Ironically, Bethpage has been taken to task by some for the expansion of the 14th green. This work was done because as Craig told me, "I was down to about a 15 foot area where we could put the cup and the green was taking a beating... we needed new hole locations..."

What is ironic here is that the extension to the crest of the hilltop in the back and also behind the right-side bunker, inadvertantly restored the green in those areas to their original dimensions. The additional front left "tongue" extended forward of the old suface, in my opinion, has created an incredible location for a hole.

Whether one likes this work or not, the hole has gone from being a 140-160 yard hole with the hole always in the front center to one that can now play as short as 125 yards to a 15' circle of green with bunkers on both sides to 180 yards with a hole far back right behind the back of the bunker.

Not only does the player have many more shot options, but it now also allows for a number of very different ways for the hole itself to present itself.


Jay Flemma

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2007, 01:53:51 PM »
I'll see you there Monday:)

I'll agree that 8 has some movement, but 11 and 12 are not 15.  World Woods, most strantz course, alot of silva courses, alot of doak courses and many other have alot more green contour than BB...I meant it doesn't have alot of movement in comparison to many of the courses we discuss on the board.

Jamie_Duffner

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2007, 01:57:28 PM »
I've never played TPC, but have played BB 100+ times.  I think there are 3 sets of greens.

8, 11, 12, 14, 15 and 17: Like Matt listed above, these have very interesting contours and quite a bit of slope or tilt.  Being above the hole on these greens can make for an impossible putt.

Then you've got 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, and 18:  These are by no means flat.  They are not dramatically undulating or tilted either.  1 has a terrific false front and a hole location near it presents a lot of issues.  The others I mention have some spots with some tilt or undulations.  There also spots where the bunkers push up the green somewhat and that presents a few slopes.  6 is a good example of this.

Then there's 2, 7, 9, 13 and 16, which are flat.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 02:16:54 PM by Jamie_Duffner »

Jason Blasberg

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2007, 10:57:15 AM »
The two courses are fundamentally different.  Sawgrass is far more of a placement/precision course off the tee.  With a few exceptions (staying to the outside of the doglegs on 1, 2,5,7, 9, and 12) there is not a significant advantage to being in one side of the fairway or another.  BB is, or at least was designed to be, a second shot golf course (it is currently a tee shot golf course because of horrendous mowing patterns).

I found Sawgrass to be more demanding off the tee and also placed far more emphasis on distance control for approach shots.  I recall pin high being much better than short or long at Sawgrass whereas at BB below the hole is almost always acceptable.

Matt_Ward

Re:Heavyweight bout! Sawgrass vs. Bethpage Black
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2007, 01:35:19 PM »
Agree w Bill V on the nature of BB having limited playing angles. The course needs to return to the style / manner previously. Ditto the over abundance in maxing out every hole for sheer length purposes. The 9th is another clear example in this regard.

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