Can a golf hole be good from one set of tees and bad from another ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Williamson's post about shot values at ANGC and Andy Troeger's response got me thinking, can a hole be good  from one set of tees but not so good to inferior from another set of tees ?

What would be an example ?

Would # 8 at Oakmont fit that slot ?

Don't think of the issue in the context that ONLY PGA Tour Pros will play one set of tees.

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
I played a par three with tees from many different angles a few weeks ago. From one angle the green was presented at a reasonable angle of attack with some green to work with, the other was blind over a bunch of rocks with a green that was probably not more than 10-15 yards deep from that angle.

If the hole were a short iron I wouldn't see much problem, but at 200 yards it was a MUCH better hole from the left than the right side.

Another theoretical example might be where forward tees are not moved up enough and force weaker players to have heroic carries or forced layups while the stronger player playing back tees can carry the hazard fairly easily. I would guess that your question that you are figuring that players of different capabilities would be playing the different tees?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

The 16th at NGLA has a unique fairway configuration, yet, there were three (3) sets of tees.  One on the low right, one high left and one in the middle.  Yet, all three worked for that hole.

I'm not so sure that's universal..

I feel that the new back tee on # 18 at PV compromises the architectural integrity of the hole.  While it might be deemed marginal by some, I think it's more than marginal since the fairway in the landing area is now more of a backstop rather than a deflective feature that would push or roll balls, especially fades or slices, to an undesireable spot.

[Andy Troeger]

I've found also that some holes have been lengthened to distances much beyond their design intent. #17 at Desert Forest is listed at 165 on the card, however there is a tee at 215 that completely changes the shot required into a small target that appeared to be designed for a shorter iron.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I know I'll get ripped for this but #9 at Kinsley might be an example of how a hole can be more playable from one set of tees and almost impossible from another set of tees that play about the same distance.  The angle into the green is vastly different from the two different sets of tees.  Now note I did not say one was good and the other bad.  But they sure could be thought of that way.

[Andy Troeger]

I almost mentioned Kingsley. Its almost like playing an entirely different hole. I thought that the one tee was about 30 yards further than the other though? I liked the hole, its tough from either tee.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Andy, it very well could be that one is longer than the other.  I only "discovered" the easier angle on my second trip.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

yes angles can make a hole.

[Jesse Jones]

I can name about 10 ridiculous tees at Kiawah-Ocean Course that make the course totally unplayable for some.
However, very few would even try going back there to hit it..

[Mark_F]

The 15th on the Gunnamatta course at the Golf Club St Andrews Beach.

It's a 360 metre par four that doglegs left to right around a huge dune, with a green hidden from the second shot landing area unless the drive is placed between a cut in a ridge that bisects the fairway.

The forward tees at 298 metres compromise the design because they are more or less straight on doen the fairway, and the mysteries of the hole are revealed.

From the back tee, one can see the flag fluttering in the distance, and people naturally head for that line, but leave themselves blinded and with less green to work with.

I like the hole, but I don't believe it worls from the forward tees at all.

Which poses perhaps another question; must all holes have more than one set of tees?  

Although located in a particularly windy location, with the most common breeze across and slightly into, it is only a modest carry in most conditions to the sancity of the fairway.

[Shane Gurnett]

Mark, what is your opinion of the two sets of tees for the 11th at St Andrews Beach? Do you have a preference either way?

[Jim Nugent]

There was a discussion a while back -- within the last year I think -- about a par 3 at Sand Hills.  IIRC there is an old (abandoned?) tee back about 220 or so, that many of you said was nearly impossible.  From the regular tee, the hole is apparently tremendous.  

[wsmorrison]

Yes, a golf hole can go from great to crap if lengthening is done without consideration for strategic disconnects.  This is especially so on holes that have specific features that come into play from certain tees and are completely out of play from other tees such as hazards, ridges, plateaus, corners of doglegs, etc.  Par 4 and par 5 holes are naturally more susceptible to the disconnects.

There is a par 5 hole on the Old Course at the Homestead that had tees moved back 60 yards or so.  This hole had a wonderful elevated tee shot across a valley to a plateau above a steep slope.  The original back tees enabled strong hitters to clear the valley and reach the plateau and have a level lie for their next shot.  The new back tee essentially made it impossible for anyone to clear the valley.  Even the longest hitters would have their tee shots roll back down the bottom of the steep upslope.  Almost all golfers faced the same dilemma from the new back tee, namely to hit a lofted iron over the rise.  This is a strategic disconnect nullifying a great natural feature and creating a unity of results.

The same thing can happen at a dogleg hole where the tee shot has no hope of getting to or past the corner.  On a treed hole, all the player can do is punch or hit a medium iron around the corner and then have a medium or short iron to the green.  It seems most golfers have less of a problem with this sort of disconnect if it is a par 5, but they should since there becomes only way to play the hole and skill is not tested.  This is true of the new tee on the 18th at Rolling Green.  It isn't good to have the last hole leave such a poor impression.

If there is a nice diagonal bunker scheme or ridge line that becomes disconnected, the strategic design is lost and the hole invariably becomes boring.

[Rich Goodale]

Yes, although I would prefer the words "less good" than "bad."

A few of the relatively new back tees at Dornoch are less good, particularly on the short 2ned adn 10th holes.  These holes did not need adding distance and/or playing them at an angle rather than straight on.  Alternatively, the new tees at the 8th and 9th and 10th significantly improve each of these holes.  In a similar vein, the back (Open) tees at the Old Course keep that track fresh and modern.  Any decent player relegated to the day to day tees will be playing an inferior course, although one which can still provide challenge and pleasure, particulalry if there is some wind and the pins are put in the tournament positions.