Lorne Rubinstein on Seminole

[Steve_ Shaffer]

JUNO BEACH, FLA. — Bob Ford played the Oakmont Country Club with Tiger Woods on April 22 and 23, and Friday, he was on the first tee at the Seminole Golf Club here to greet some of the top amateurs in the United States for the start of the second round of the Coleman Invitational.

It was another day's work for Ford, the head professional at Seminole and director of golf at Oakmont, the site of the U.S. Open next month.

Seminole, one of the most fascinating courses, was playing tough as the winds blew hard across the open terrain near the Atlantic Ocean.

Ford sent off players such as two-time Walker Cup player Trip Kuehne, whom Woods beat in the final of the 1994 U.S. Amateur. Spider Miller, a two-time U.S. Mid-Amateur champion, was also playing. And Ford sent them off on their appointed rounds, knowing they were in for an adventure.

"The severity of the greens combined with the difficulty of the bunkers here exposes a player's short-game weaknesses," said Ford, who has played in nine PGA Championships and three U.S. Opens.


Here's the rest of the story:

http://tinyurl.com/38kfo6

[Gary Slatter]

thanks, Lorne is a fine commentator on golf.   His piece seemed quite different than a recent thread about Seminole!  

[TEPaul]

Obviously it can't happen but I would like to see what a good smattering of top tour pros would do on Seminole in that Coleman setup with a really good wind. I know from experience those greens have got to be as tough as US Opens. It's just hair-raising to see what can happen to the ball sometimes on and around those greens, and particularly if you're aware of how the course plays when it doesn't have that setup.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Thanks for the article...a very interesting read.  Is anyone here playing this week down at the Coleman?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rubinstein's account of Harcourt Kemp's disaster at # 18 is inaccurate.

Harcourt is a fine player, a fine putter and very familiar with the greens.

What Rubinstein failed to mention is that one of Harcourt's putts, from above the hole, continued to roll, past the hole, off the green, down into the fairway 20 to 40 yards from the green.

That's goofy golf.

Year's ago I spoke with a former President of the USGA about Ross's sloped greens stimping at 11, 12 and 13, and the wind.
We were in agreement that that set-up is over the top.

So much so that several players indicated that it's no longer fun to play.

Next, some lunatic will suggest reducing the slopes, disfiguring and ruining forever Ross's wonderful green complexes in the name of "speed".

Keeping those greens at a reasonable speeds and adding some length to the back tees would be a more practical approach.

Unless someone does something about the distance issue, courses will have to continue to resort to goofiness in order to make them challenging for the better player.

Seminole is a spectacular member's golf course, but this is what happens to every great classic golf course when you expose it to championship play for the better and best golfers in the world

[TEPaul]

I've seen a lot of different idiosycracies in golfers particularly with preshot routines but both the type of dance Harcourt does and the extent of it is one of the oddest. The other is what Gib Papazian does with his club before hitting the ball. It looks something like a guy either trying to kill a snake with his clubhead or trying to get a dead snake he's already killed with his club uncoiled from the club's shaft and clubhead.

[Tim Liddy]

Pat,
They are not Ross greens. If you look at the originial drawings and the exisiting greens they are not even close. I believe that Wilson  and years of topdressing have removed all the character of the original greens. A remodel of the greens to there original design would be a good thing. Don't you think?

[TEPaul]

Tim:

According to PD the greens of Seminole were once altered by a pretty well known black contractor from Georgia. He told me his name but of course I forgot it. I forgot to ask him when he thinks that happened too. Do you have any idea?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
They are not Ross greens. If you look at the originial drawings and the exisiting greens they are not even close. I believe that Wilson  and years of topdressing have removed all the character of the original greens. A remodel of the greens to there original design would be a good thing. Don't you think?

Tim,

I have the graphed drawings of the original Seminole greens and I don't know that I'd say that the existing greens aren't close to the originals.

In addition, we learned at Aronomink that the pre-construction drawings and the as builts can be two distinctly different products.  So, I don't know if you can conclude that the drawings, in fact, made it into the ground.

Early ground level photos would certainly help clear up that question.

I've heard conflicting stories about Wilson's involvement.

One, is that he only altered # 18.  Another is that he altered many of the greens.

Given the incredible slopes in the existing greens, it's hard to imagine that they've been softened substantively.

As to internal contouring, early photos would probably confirm or debunk their existance.

[Tim Liddy]

Pat,
I believe it is relatively easy to Google earth and get great photos of the greens today and the green-side bunkers.  They do not look similar to me. I also know a member that has played the golf course the past 50 years and he says they are not Ross greens.

Tom,
All I know is when I build something Mr. Dye does not like and we are in front of a client (and he does not want to chastise me in front of the client) He calls me "Amos Jones".  That is when I know I have done something wrong.

[TEPaul]

Amos Jones. That was the name. Thanks Tim.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
I believe it is relatively easy to Google earth and get great photos of the greens today and the green-side bunkers.  They do not look similar to me. I also know a member that has played the golf course the past 50 years and he says they are not Ross greens.

If that member is PD, I've heard him make that statement as well, however, I'm not so sure his statement is accurate, as Wilson's work was done around 1947 when PD was just out of college and about to begin his insurance career, and certainly, decades before PD became an architect.[/color]

[KBanks]

I recall reading an account of renovation work done on Seminole's greens, probably in the '90s, but in any event well before the more recent Silva redo of the bunkers. I'm not certain what exactly they did to the greens, but I think the fellow that they used to map them was Ed Connor, so they apparently intended to preserve the existing contours.

Ken

[John_Cullum]

I spent last week just a few miles north of Jupiter. The wind was steady at 25 to 30 mph all afternoon both days. The finishing holes on thursday must have been nigh impossible with the wind coming out of the southeast. Thursday afternoon it blew so hard I could barely walk out on my dock without fear of being blown over the side, I commented to my wife that she probably shouldn't walk out there. Saturday wasn't as bad, fairly calm in the morning out of the west, but pretty stiff by the afternoon.

That they were able to break 80 is pretty amazing.

[james soper]

Keeping those greens at a reasonable speeds and adding some length to the back tees would be a more practical approach.

pat, where can they add length at seminole?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Keeping those greens at a reasonable speeds and adding some length to the back tees would be a more practical approach.

pat, where can they add length at seminole?

They're fairly limited, but, with some inconvenience, they could lengthen # 1, 4, 7, 9*, 10, 11 and # 16.

There may be some other holes where you could pick up nominal yardage, but, I wouldn't want to see any of the par 3's lengthened beyond what's already been done.

[JESII]

Is there really anything that needs[/i] to be done to Seminole?

More than just about any other course I know of that hosts a high level amateur tournament, Seminole can absolutely kill those guys...while at the same time be a very enjoyable members course.

I understand the issue with ultra-fast green speeds and how the resulting course might just be over the top if the wind blows, but that is a decision made by the folks that run the tournament...people are still able to shoot decent scores in the most extreme conditions, and when it's mild the scores are quite good, but with a wide scoring spectrum.

Lengthening any of those holes you mention Pat, will only add congestion, 10 or 15 yards on any one of them would hardly have a bearing on the players anyway so why bother...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is there really anything that needs[/i] to be done to Seminole?

JES II,

When members indicate that the conditions of play can be over the top and that the greens need to be slowed down and some addtional yardage added, one has to give some credence to that position, especially when it comes from a broad spectrum of players.[/color]

More than just about any other course I know of that hosts a high level amateur tournament, Seminole can absolutely kill those guys...while at the same time be a very enjoyable members course.

Kill them with goofiness ?

I'm one of those who think that Seminole is a spectacular golf course for members and guests.

But, do you see a potentially dangerous pattern developing ?

Once a golf course hosts a tournament for the better to the best players in the world, another dynamic rears its ugly head.

Winged Foot East had several greens surgically altered.
Winged Foot West has some greens that can smell the ether.
The odor is getting stronger at Merion.
Will Seminole be next ?[/color]

I understand the issue with ultra-fast green speeds and how the resulting course might just be over the top if the wind blows, but that is a decision made by the folks that run the tournament...people are still able to shoot decent scores in the most extreme conditions, and when it's mild the scores are quite good, but with a wide scoring spectrum.

You and I, and others, know that you don't go from moderate speeds to light speed over a weekend.  It's a process, and with that process comes exposure to the lessor player and ..... complaints.  Complaints that often result in the surgical flattening of the green rather than the slowing of the pace.  That's where the danger lies.[/color]

Lengthening any of those holes you mention Pat, will only add congestion, 10 or 15 yards on any one of them would hardly have a bearing on the players anyway so why bother...

# 9 could be lengthened substantively without any negatives.
And, at about 499 yards, the hole could use some length.

10-15-20 yards in a windy environment is more than you think.

As to the congestion, the half way house would have to be moved.[/color]

[JESII]

Pat,


15 yards is 15 yards regardless of the wind...

Adding 15 yards to the 6 holes you mention for the sake of replacing the challenge presented by 12+ feet stimpmeter readings would accomplish nothing when compared to the negatives resulting from #'s 1 and 10 tees being 15 yards closer to the clubhouse and starter locations...#4 tee being right next to the 6th green and 7th tee (the new one you would build), #11 requiring an island in the pond and #16 dictating a reconstruction of the entire driving range on a property with no room to move it elsewhere...


If par is a concern, hence the need to add length to offset any comprimised difficulty that comes from slowing the greens down, change #9 to a par 4...every player in that field or in the club championship can reach the hole in two...even into the prevailing wind...do the same thing with #14...better yet...don't even worry about it, the course is great.

If there are members concerned about too much speed during the week or two leading up to the Coleman, I am sure they know who to talk to. An interesting thing is that you always speak of the benefits of a benign dictator governance at golf clubs, and now at a place with just that structure you fret about the voice of some of the members not being heard...

My thought, take the good with the bad in this type of deal.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,


15 yards is 15 yards regardless of the wind...

Adding 15 yards to the 6 holes you mention for the sake of replacing the challenge presented by 12+ feet stimpmeter readings would accomplish nothing when compared to the negatives resulting from #'s 1 and 10 tees being 15 yards closer to the clubhouse and starter locations...#4 tee being right next to the 6th green and 7th tee (the new one you would build), #11 requiring an island in the pond and #16 dictating a reconstruction of the entire driving range on a property with no room to move it elsewhere...

I disagree with you on #'s 1 and 10.

As to # 4, there's plenty of room before you get next to the
6th green.  The same with # 7.

On # 9 there's probably close to 50 or more yards available.

With respect to # 11, what are you talking about ?
There is no water behind the current tee, extending it back is fairly simple.

# 16 would only require a higher net on the range.[/color]

If par is a concern, hence the need to add length to offset any comprimised difficulty that comes from slowing the greens down, change #9 to a par 4...every player in that field or in the club championship can reach the hole in two...even into the prevailing wind...do the same thing with #14...better yet...don't even worry about it, the course is great.

Noone, except one fellow indicated that the golf course wasn't great.  But, look at the direction in which they've headed.  Rolling, cutting and getting the green speeds to 13 or 13+.  10 -11 is more than adequate and would remove ANY
TEMPTATION to flatten them.[/color]

If there are members concerned about too much speed during the week or two leading up to the Coleman, I am sure they know who to talk to.

You must be kidding.
Although, the new Major Domo is an outstandingly terrific guy.
[/color]

An interesting thing is that you always speak of the benefits of a benign dictator governance at golf clubs, and now at a place with just that structure you fret about the voice of some of the members not being heard...

That's not what I said.
And, let me repeat my preference for a dictator.

The philosophy of greater green speeds to defend par is a potentially dangerous direction to travel.
It leads to flattening of the putting surfaces, which would be a travesty at Seminole, Winged Foot and Merion.
Yet, it's happening, and I think we'd agree that that's not a good thing.[/color]

My thought, take the good with the bad in this type of deal.


ANGC gets a lot of heat for altering the golf course to preserve the challenge for the best players in the world.

Winged Foot and Merion are considering the same thing.

Pine Valley has also made alterations.

Now that Seminole has the Coleman and another event with PGA Tour Pros, is it wild to think that they won't succumb to the same pressures ?

Bobby Jones was right, "there's GOLF, and there's TOURNAMENT GOLF."  And, little did he know about the impact of Tournament golf on GOLF[/color]