[Jay Flemma]

When I wrote my other thread earlier, it got me to thinking..what do you think is the HARDEST course by certain architects?

Strantz:  Royal New Kent.  Not just intimidating visually, but demanding in terms of precision and the penalties handed out for missing the greens.  I think its WAAAAAAY tougher than true blue.

Doak:  Boy this is a tough one as Doak layouts are really quite playable for average golfers.  Its not Beechtree or PD.  I'm gonna say the rawls Course since when the wind kicks up, its a freakin bear.

Engh:  Easy.  Sanctuary.  Tight on many sides. Thank god Jim discovered wider is better.  that being said, standing on that first tee you think you're standing at the top of the tower of Minas Tirith looking out over the Pelennor Fields. Amazing view...breathtaking.

Silva:  Again, easy I think - Shaker hills.  Its the tightest of all his layouts.

Tillinghast:  WFW

Pete dye:  PGA West stadium.  I forget who said it, but "bring a canoe, a camel a tourniquet and a priest."

Your thoughts?  Do you think Yale is Raynor's hardest?

[Sean Leary]

I think the Ocean Course is Dyes' toughest. Makes PGA West seem easy imo.

I think Doak's Stonewall can play very tough in the summer when the tall grass is up.

Fazio, I am guessing Victoria National, but won't get to play that one until I join that CCM deal for a reciprocal play there...

[Tom_Doak]

I think my toughest courses (in order they were built, not in order of toughness) are Black Forest, Stonewall (Old), Lost Dunes, Cape Kidnappers and Sebonack.

Sebonack is probably the toughest, although if the wind is howling there is less place to hide at Cape Kidnappers.

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

There was a Pro-Am today at Lost Dunes. I bet it was plenty tough with the 50 mph wind gusts they were experiencing!

I played Gull Lake CC in that wind today.....I hit driver on 3 of the 4 par 3's.

Joe

[Jay Flemma]

I think my toughest courses (in order they were built, not in order of toughness) are Black Forest, Stonewall (Old), Lost Dunes, Cape Kidnappers and Sebonack.

Sebonack is probably the toughest, although if the wind is howling there is less place to hide at Cape Kidnappers.

Tom, where would Rawls course be and why?

[Sam Morrow]

Rawls is the only Doak course I have played and I can imagine that if the wind is really blowing that it's brutal but there are places that you can miss the ball out there and not get in to much trouble. I would have to think about it but I don't think Rawls is one of the 10 or 15 hardest course in Texas.

[Michael Robin]

Haven't been to Sebonack yet, but I've played Kidnappers in a 2 club wind and a 4 club wind, and it can be brutally tough. It's also a cross-wind just to make matters more fun.

There are 2 of the hardest holes I've ever played on this course. The great 6th is a 3 wood in anticipated distance with the wind, but that will baloon and get blown over the cliff, so you are forced into hitting a hooking long iron instead and using the terrain to run onto the green. The other is the obvious 15th. 600 plus yards with a monster cross-wind L-R that forces you to start the ball over the left cliff and then hope to keep it out of the right side hazard. This happens not only on your drive, but also on your second and likely your third shot that might still be played with a wood.

There is also difficulty in dealing with the short game contours for putting and chipping. They are also affected by wind making this a very taxing round on the mind as there is not a shot you can take for granted or let down on. Oh, don't let me forget to mention it's FAST and FIRM!

That being said, Tom has taken all this into account as the course is very playable. It just pushes you to execute and smacks you if you don't.

[Andy Troeger]

Steve Smyers: Wolf Run
Dye: If Kiawah is toughest according to GD, good enough for me. He has a lot of tough ones though!

Tom...interesting that you included Lost Dunes. One thing I liked about it was that while I do agree with you that its a tough course, it also very much rewards good shots. I actually set my 9 hole record on the back last year, but I hit all 9 greens and made some good putts, so that helps    I didn't break 40 on the front though.

[PThomas]

The Ocean Course is the hardest golf course I have ever played

played several of Tom's...I gotta think about his for a bit...

[Jerry Kluger]

Jay: I have played RNK a number of times and while it is visually intimidating, it is really just a lot of fun if you don't try to bite off too much.  There are some funky bounces and stuff but overall, I think it is just a refreshing change.

The Ocean Course is very enjoyable provided you play it at the correct tees and the wind isn't howling - a stiff breeze is challenging but not unmanagable. . The fairways are generous and there are usually bailouts for shots into the greens.  By no means is it easy, but I've played it a number of times and once you realize where to play the shot it really is a great experience and a fun round.

[Dan_Callahan]

I thought Stonehouse was more difficult than RNK. It is my least favorite of the four Strantz courses I've played. Some of the really goofy holes with severe drops and shallow greens made for difficult scoring. Didn't help that the bunkers were like cement. Even in pristine conditions, though, I think I would have a tough time there. Some of the shots into the greens are really difficult.

[Tom_Doak]

Andy:

Lost Dunes is one of the harder courses for a good player to "go low" -- Stonewall is another -- but I agree, Lost Dunes is not too intimidating for a 10-handicapper who can putt.  I've shot in the high 70's there a handful of times, and I can't say that about Stonewall.

[Doug Sobieski]

I hit driver on 3 of the 4 par 3's.

Joe:

That doesn't tell me if they were into the wind or down wind with you  

Sobe

[Joe Hancock]

I hit driver on 3 of the 4 par 3's.

Joe:

That doesn't tell me if they were into the wind or down wind with you  

Sobe

I wish I could refute you're insinuations...by the way, how's that snap hook doing?

Hope you're well,

Joe

[Jay Flemma]

I thought Stonehouse was more difficult than RNK. It is my least favorite of the four Strantz courses I've played. Some of the really goofy holes with severe drops and shallow greens made for difficult scoring. Didn't help that the bunkers were like cement. Even in pristine conditions, though, I think I would have a tough time there. Some of the shots into the greens are really difficult.

Dan what were the others?

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

Lost Dunes is one of the harder courses for a good player to "go low" -- Stonewall is another -- but I agree, Lost Dunes is not too intimidating for a 10-handicapper who can putt.  I've shot in the high 70's there a handful of times, and I can't say that about Stonewall.

Tom,
As a first time player, I was very fortunate to have had a very good caddie who could tell me where the best place to hit it was and who could read greens. I looked at speed, and he told me where to hit it, and I managed to avoid three-putting all day and made one bomb on #17 up the ridge. That was fun  FWIW, back nine was 32.

[cary lichtenstein]

Jay: I have played RNK a number of times and while it is visually intimidating, it is really just a lot of fun if you don't try to bite off too much.  There are some funky bounces and stuff but overall, I think it is just a refreshing change.

The Ocean Course is very enjoyable provided you play it at the correct tees and the wind isn't howling - a stiff breeze is challenging but not unmanagable. . The fairways are generous and there are usually bailouts for shots into the greens.  By no means is it easy, but I've played it a number of times and once you realize where to play the shot it really is a great experience and a fun round.

I would agree. I haven't played a tough Engh or Doak course yet, but I have played a few unpleasant Dye Courses, when he wants to get mean, he gets mean.

[Jay Flemma]

Jerry, you may be right about Kiawah now that I think about it, but I still have far more trouble and walk on more eggshells at RNK than stonehouse.

Hey Cary, what about your choice on Mike?

[Tom_Doak]

Based on my walk-through today, Wicked Pony will certainly crack my top five most difficult courses.  Yikes!

[Dan_Callahan]

Dan what were the others?

Tot Hill, Tobacco Road, RNK, Stonehouse.

For the first three, I felt like if I ignored the visual intimidation and hit a good shot, the design and setup was actually pretty forgiving.

Stonehouse seemed like there were an awful lot of forced carries to very shallow greens with hazard in front and bunkers behind (or some other combination that made only slight misses end up in deep trouble).

[Paul Carey]

I agree that Sonehouse is tougher than RNK and not nearly as fun.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jay: I played Doak's Stone Eagle last year and the first round I played it up one set of tees with some guys like me who are around 10 handicaps and found it challenging with some very difficult recovery shots.  Next day I played it from the tips with some guys that are much better than me - I struggled but they ate the course for lunch - drove the ball so far that they had short irons into long holes and made the recovery shots look easy - putting was the only thing stopping them from very low scores.  Point is, really good players can make most any course look easy in decent weather conditions.  

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