[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

The concept of influence in the form of "Whew, we should never do that again" has merit.  My contention would still be that a body of work would influence this more than a single course.

Perhaps the best example I can think of off the top of my head is the Nicklaus cone mounds, which were okay at Grand Cypress, but not as successful in other locations, and soon dumped by both Jack and those who copied them.  

Perhaps MacKenzie's Stillwell Park Green (although influential in the 1890's, not 1990's) would be a historic example, as would be early cross bunkering in geometric shapes.  Perhaps, even Tillies "Hells Half Acre" concept.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Or Cupp's Palmetto Hall geometric experiment on Hilton Head Island.

[Gib_Papazian]

Jeff,
Help me understand how a guy with as much talent and taste as you possess could state - unless you are pulling our legs - that the Nicklaus cone mounds could possibly have been "okay" at Grand Cypress.

I'm with Stettner on this one. When I was in the movie biz, we used to consider it nearly as important to study why films were bad as much as try to identify what made them good.

I've not been to SandPines, mostly because not a single person I know with taste has told me to play it - unless Iwant to be overcome with Atlantic CC type nausea.

It is possible that as a golfing culture, we can thank the really convoluted stuff like Stone Harbor and Grand Cypress for accelerating the great wheel of fad and fashion back to where it began.

If you take a head count, there are more designers turning out good stuff today than not. 10 or 20 years ago, I am not sure that would have been true - depending on your definition of "good."

 

[Paul Richards]

Mark:

Yes, Kemper Lakes IS the second-best public course in
Chicago.

BillV:

I see what you mean!

[Jeff Brauer]

Gib,

Well, I am a typical golfer, and I do recall shooting an unexpected 74 that day, so I give the course the benefit of the doubt.

It was the first time I saw a Scottish copycat course, and I thought it was cool at the time.  When I saw those mounds trying to replicate Scotland, I thought they might be the best facsimiles possble on a flat site.  When I saw them at Lochinvar simply as design features, I was not impressed with the either their function on that property and the "new" had worn off.

Perhaps, with all the "tribute courses" being built now, GCypress really is the most influential course.

I am not against designers trying new stuff, even if it doesn't always work out, as that is how progress is made.  If it were up to some here, we would replicate the golden age forever, without any possibility of moving forward.  

[MR3WIGGLE]

I am new to GCA and saw this discussion.  I have played many golf course some modern and some classic courses.  I am in the golf business so I do get to visit a lot of different club. I have not had the privledge of playing Sand Hillls or Shadow Creek but I do have to say the best course I have played built in the 90's is The Pete Dye Golf Club.

[A_Clay_Man]

I have subsequently learned that Shadow doesn't qualify. It was built in 89'.

[David Wigler]

Adam,

Shadow Creek was definitely built in 1990.

[A Clay Man]

DW- Regardless of when it was built, Do you actually think that it should be mentioned in the same breath as SH? WHile I have'nt seen SH, I have absorbed enough to confidently make that statement.

While SC is fine example of carving out golf holes, does it have the feel, strategic options and spirit of a course worthy of your Dec. 01' accalades?

BTW, when I asked the GM in July when the course was built he answered 89'. And the reason I remember it so well is because that was the same year Pinon Hills was built and opened.

[David Wigler]

Adam,

This is a very old thread.  I was not claiming that Shadow Creek was the "Best", I was arguing that it was the most influential.  Sand Hills is a better golf course.  From an influence on golf design standpoint, I would argue that Sand Hills had nowhere near the impact of Shadow Creek.  Shadow Creek started the concept of signature architect.  It was proof that unlimited money could self create any environment and build excellence.  You can certainly trace Whistling Straits, Victoria National, all of Trumps courses, Reflections Bay, much of Palm Springs, etc. to Shadow Creek.

[Tim Weiman]

Adam/David,

While a strong case can be made that Shadow Creek - for better or worse - was the most influencial, I'm inclined to say Troon North beats either SC or SH for the same reasons mentioned above.

The whole CCFAD thing seems to be bigger in the last ten years than anything related to SC or SH. I may have it wrong, but I sure recall Troon North being at the forefront of that movement.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Dave,

Who said it had to be a good influence?  Not nearly as many courses were good influences as were bad influences regarding GC design and it's relation to the effects on the game such as cost and lack of walking possibilities in the 90's.

We here at GCA know and praise the "good" influence courses, but in the general golfing world, these courses don't mean much and are few and far between.  Modern cartball/housing/CCFAD/lush, overwatered green courses rule, thus the biggest influence.  Also, the general golfing world considers them good influences.

[ed_getka]

David,
 When you say influential, I think a distinction needs to be made as to who is being influenced. Joe Golfer or Joe Architect. I have a book Wynn put together of Shadow Creek that shows all the holes and after seeing it I thought it would be nice to play there some day (when it gets cheaper, which it has). However, when I received my first postcard of Sand Hills I immediately knew I HAD to play there in my lifetime. And Tom Doak in his confidential guide rates Sand Hills a possible 10 (if memory serves) while it was still DIRT and nobody had played there. I would call that influential in my book. The courses I seek out since seeing pix of Sand Hills have been Bandon Dunes, followed by Pacific Dunes, followed by Kingsley Club. Of course that is my personal preference, but that is how I've been influenced.

[Paul Daley]

No way is Shadow Creek the most influential course built in the 1990s. Maybe in the US ... but hey, it's a big golf world out there. Sand Hills wins hands down because of its international significance and for being a frequent discussion point wherever golf is played.

[A_Clay_Man]

Agreed Paul. And the reason that is is that it was built with love and not just money.

[Gene Greco]

I believe GD or Golf magazine did a piece on this in their January 2000 issue. For the change of the millenium a course was picked from each decade since golf had started in the US which most represented the style of golf architecture for that period.

The pick for the 1990s? Sand Hills

The pick for the 1980s? You guessed it. SC


Others I remember but not for sure:

1890s: Shinnecock (or The Country Club)

1900s: Oakmont

1910s: Pine Valley

1920s: Cypess Point

1930s: Augusta National

1940s: Peachtree

1950s: Champions GC?

1960s: Harbour Town

1970s: Muirfield Village

1980s: Shadow Creek

1990s: Sand Hills  

[Jerry Kluger]

    I would have to say that Shadow Creek had the most influence on the architecture of Tom Fazio rather than influence on golf architecture as a whole.  When SC first opened the reviews were incredible and as I recollect Golf Digest immediately put it in their top 10.  From that point forward Fazio felt that he could do no wrong and his work was characterized by visual impression and appearances.  
     Pete Dye's Stadium Course at Sawgrass is to me one of the most influential courses that was ever built although it was not built in the 1990s.  Dye began the stadium concept to give the spectator the opportunity to enjoy watching a tournament, unfortunately however, while the idea was copied the execution has never been nearly as well done. The course also gave Dye much more of the recognition that he deserved and the opportunity to create some wonderful courses without carrying the same theme over and over as Fazio does.  I have always viewed the Stadium Course as one of the most special courses because of the incredible variety of holes and the many risk/rewards that it offers.  Believe it or not despite my love for the course I am not a fan of the 17th for reasons that I have posted on other threads.  

[David Wigler]

So Digest hedged and awarded to both Sand Hills and Shadow Creek.  I still do not believe it is close.  What influence did Sand Hills have?  The best answer I can come up with is the philosophy that "If you built it, they will come and play".  How many courses has this gotten built?  Bandon, Pacific, Kohler, Pinion Hills, Red Mike and maybe a handful of others.  Kingsley is not like Sand Hills.  It is a private club in a populated resort area.

For each club that was built by the influence of Sand Hills, I could name ten built through the influence of Shadow Creek.

As for the minimalist philosophy, it is followed by a majority of GCA'ers but let's be realistic, for each minimalist course being built, there are probably 100 of the lush and fluffy types.  Ask yourself a question, who gets more work; Tom (Great minimalist designer) Doak or Art (Tell me where the talent is) Hills?

Stadium Course is a great argument.  It also defined a style that has been copied frequently.

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