Johnny Miller's Thanksgiving Point (with pics)

[Kalen Braley]

Garland and Bill,

It's interesting how this topic has turned into Thanksgiving Point being a "forced carry" brute when the reality is there are only 2 forced carries on the entire course, 7 and 17.  Every other hole does not require a forced carry. Most local munis I play usually have more forced carries than this.

The reality is,the course has OB or a water hazard to negotiate on ever hole except the 9th, and this is what makes the course more difficult.  But even then with a "old man" scenario such as Garland has submitted, who can hit his driver 150 yards down the middle, this is not a issue.

[Garland Bayley]

...
At Thanksgiving Point Johnny Miller utilized an excellent natural feature, the Jordan River, to add some strength to the shots required on various holes there while targeting a different golf demographic than the demographic a fantastic traditional course like the San Francisco Golf Club attracts.  Both great, both very different.

At Thanksgiving point, Johnny Miller chose to dumb down golf and force the player to have one choice on two holes, to hit it high, and hit it long. He didn't have to. He could have made two very fine holes without doing so. But he chose to take a piece of the land and make an abysmal routing that only a cart baller could love so he could force his way on the players.

As far as laying up is concerned, let's say you are on the road hole with 130 to the center. You know the shot you would like to play, but your swing has been so undependable that day that your typical miss would put you in the road hole bunker. To compound the situation, the wind is blowing hard. Now do you go for the green, or do you hit some kind of layup to play safe and not chance the bunker? I understand the typical "lay up" to the road hole is to the right of the green. Do you take it or not?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland and Bill,

It's interesting how this topic has turned into Thanksgiving Point being a "forced carry" brute when the reality is there are only 2 forced carries on the entire course, 7 and 17.  Every other hole does not require a forced carry. Most local munis I play usually have more forced carries than this.

The reality is,the course has OB or a water hazard to negotiate on ever hole except the 9th, and this is what makes the course more difficult.  But even then with a "old man" scenario such as Garland has submitted, who can hit his driver 150 yards down the middle, this is not a issue.

Not sure what "old man" scenario you are taking about. I can carry a good drive 250 yards these days, but when the situation demands it, I will lay up on a 130 yard par 3. Am I the "old man" you are referring to? I did not call the course a brute other than to echo what was said about it. I simply think there is one corner of the course that is poorly designed, especially since I am a committed walker.

[Matt_Ward]

Given the stated answers from some regarding Miller's design of TP I can only imagine they would likely find Bethpage Black to be of similar limited appeal for much the same reasons supplied on the course in the greater SLC area.

To each his own.

Candidly, I have had the opportunity and pleasure to sample a number of the courses that often times fly lower on the public radar screen. TP, IMHO, is one of them.

The photos taken were not indicative of what the course is truly about -- again no offense to the photographer.

TP provides a solid mixture of holes and if people venture to tees beyond their capability then the fault resides with the golfer who opts that route. The golf course should not be brought down simply because of the foolish tendencies of people who as Clint Eastwood opined, "a man's got to know his limitations."

[Garland Bayley]

Yea Matt, but have you seen #7. You have to walk from the green back to the tee and beyond on the outside of the hole to get to the next tee. Oh! I forgot! You rode a cart.
 

[Mike_Cirba]

Count me as a big fan of Utah golf.   While still gorgeous, spacious, and rugged, it's not as tree-laden as neighboring Colorado.

Near Salt Lake City I am enthralled with some wonderful public venues like Bonneville, Valley View (north in Layton), and even Arthur Hills WingPointe near the airport is worth a visit.  I had a blast one day at West Ridge, and even love the Park City muni that Press Maxwell built just below the ski areas.   I'd really like to go back to the Beehive state someday because there are any number of other courses I'm sure I'd enjoy visiting.

I think the pictures of Thanksgiving Point look pretty darn good.   While there is some obvious man-made shaping, it does seem to fit the contours of the surrounds, and the backdrops, and it's not irritating because the swales and mounding don't just appear on the perimeters, but are tied into the fairways which look rippled and wavy.  

While it doesn't look like anything particularly original to the world of golf, it does look thoughtful, varied, and mostly like a course where someone paid attention to the details.

Now, if they could just blow away those houses.  

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I glanced through the posts and didnt see any mention of this, but wasnt Thanksgiving Point the course that (at least when it opened) was closed on Sunday's because of the owners devout Mormon faith.  I may be confused, but I think that this was the course.

Is this still the case?

I always wondered about the business plan for a golf course that would take one of its two biggest revenue producing days and not be open for business that day.  I wondered how that worked out for them, and is it still the way they operate?  

[Matt_Ward]

Turboe:

From what I understand the no-play Sunday rule is no longer in effect.

Mike C:

No doubt the housing element can be intrusive -- but from the different times I've played TP there is sufficient room for the golfer to enjoy the course and not feel so cramped. My God, there are tons of courses in the east where the feeling of being restricted is much more of an issue.

TP is a tremendous test and even with the altitude there's sufficient movement on the greens to require a good bit more than simply bombing tee shots without concern where they land and the angles they can provide.

Keep it on your radar list for any future visit.

Ditto a side trip to South Mountain in nearby Draper.

[Kalen Braley]

Turboe:

From what I understand the no-play Sunday rule is no longer in effect.

Mike C:

No doubt the housing element can be intrusive -- but from the different times I've played TP there is sufficient room for the golfer to enjoy the course and not feel so cramped. My God, there are tons of courses in the east where the feeling of being restricted is much more of an issue.

TP is a tremendous test and even with the altitude there's sufficient movement on the greens to require a good bit more than simply bombing tee shots without concern where they land and the angles they can provide.

Keep it on your radar list for any future visit.

Ditto a side trip to South Mountain in nearby Draper.

Daryl,

The course is indeed open on Sundays, I've played it on a Sunday twice this winter.  Another thing that must be mentioned about TP is the price.  They have a winter rate that runs for the winter months which takes the previous days high temp, divide it by 2, and thats the green fee, cart included.  So on the days I've played TP, I've never spent more than $25.  To be able to play that course for that much money is an absolute steal.  

I can also confirm that yes there is lots of movement in the fairways and greens and if anything the pictures didn't do justice to the greens, because they are all very undulating with multiple tiers.

I played South Mountain today for the first time and it is also a nice course with some great holes.  I have personally never seen a course that was litterally carved out of the side of a mountain.  The bunkering is spectacular, it has a good mix of short and long par 4s, and the par 3s are short but devilish.  That being said, I can't even begin to imagine anyone attempting to walk this course, but some very nice holes are found for sure.  

Both of the courses are worth a look if you're in the area.

I can also vouch for Cirba's recommendation of Valley View and Wingpointe near the airport.  I would also throw in Old Mill, Riverbend, TalonsCove and Bountiful Ridge.  The selection of public courses in the Salt lake area is very very good and they are all very affordable.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Here's what it boils down to -- place TP in a larger size metro area and include a preferred name architect and people would be gushing and fall over themselves to say what a fantastic course it is.

The greater SLC area, unfortunately, is not known by many people and often times ignorance is indeed bliss.

I've played TP three times over the years and I am constantly amazed on how well it has held up. Is it a perfect course? No. But how many are? TP has a number of stellar holes and I have always find it to be a pleasure to play.

In regards to South Mtn -- it's a cart ball course. If people prefer walking then other golf options should be on their list. I salute what Panks did with a very demanding site. For a hilly layout he's done well and candidly, better than many who have operated on such similar parcels of land.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Here's what it boils down to -- place TP in a larger size metro area and include a preferred name architect and people would be gushing and fall over themselves to say what a fantastic course it is.

The greater SLC area, unfortunately, is not known by many people and often times ignorance is indeed bliss.

I've played TP three times over the years and I am constantly amazed on how well it has held up. Is it a perfect course? No. But how many are? TP has a number of stellar holes and I have always find it to be a pleasure to play.

In regards to South Mtn -- it's a cart ball course. If people prefer walking then other golf options should be on their list. I salute what Panks did with a very demanding site. For a hilly layout he's done well and candidly, better than many who have operated on such similar parcels of land.

I would agree Matt,

Being from the bay area, there would be people lining up at the gate and falling over themselves to get on.  And to be able to pay $25 for it...thats just crazy cheap.

In the bay area all you can get for $25 is a course that is maybe a 2 on the Doak scale at best....

South Mountain has come outstanding holes and the rugged terrain allowed for some very heroic and challenging golf holes to be made.  I will be sure to take my camera along next time so I can document the holes.  17 and 18 make for a wonderful finish.

[Garland Bayley]

...
In the bay area all you can get for $25 is a course that is maybe a 2 on the Doak scale at best....
...

I don't have my Confidential Guide handy. Kalen, could you please remind me the definition of a Doak 2?

[Kalen Braley]

...
In the bay area all you can get for $25 is a course that is maybe a 2 on the Doak scale at best....
...

I don't have my Confidential Guide handy. Kalen, could you please remind me the definition of a Doak 2?

Here it is..

2: mediocre course with little architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. (Play it in a scramble and drink a lot of beer).

As for TP, I would put it at least here, maybe even a 7.

6:  A very good course, definitely worth a game, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn't disappoint you.

[Garland Bayley]

...
In the bay area all you can get for $25 is a course that is maybe a 2 on the Doak scale at best....
...

I don't have my Confidential Guide handy. Kalen, could you please remind me the definition of a Doak 2?

Here it is..

2: mediocre course with little architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. (Play it in a scramble and drink a lot of beer).

As for TP, I would put it at least here, maybe even a 7.

6:  A very good course, definitely worth a game, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn't disappoint you.

Thanks, beer drinking and $25 coupled brought a chuckle.

[Bill Satterfield]

Alright, I've never posted pics here before but I'll give it a whirl.  Here are pics of the par 3s at Thanksgiving Point:


The stunning and dramatic 250 Yard 17th



The challenging and well bunkered 15th Hole



The pretty and protected 7th Hole



The only hole you can see from I-15, the downhill 4th Hole

[Garland Bayley]

Nice pics Bill!