Link to French Creek Photos?

[Jason Blasberg]

I recall a thread or two in the past with photos and some analysis of French Creek but I came up empty in my search . . . can anyone provide a link?

[Jeff_Stettner]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=27135

[Scott_Burroughs]

The battle of the French's, PA vs. IN.  Are there any other courses in the U.S. beside these two with French in their name?

I think Jason might be thinking of this thread, but all of the pics are no longer available (on those links, at least):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7273;start=msg141537#msg141537

Tom Paul showed some during construction in perhaps '02....

[Dan Herrmann]

Jason,
If it's French Creek PA, I have a lot of photos I can share.  Rumor is that I spend too much time out there.

[Jason Blasberg]

Yes, it's Gil Hanse's FC in PA.  BTW, in the google aerial it's literally across the road from Stonewall. What are the similarities and differences between the two?  

[Dan Herrmann]

Jason,  I've been a member there since the day we opened and have spent time talking with Gil about the design.

Gil actually gets design credit with Tom Doak for the original Stonewall course.  Personally, I think that Stonewall is a better golf course, but that's not knocking French Creek because Stonewall is a helluva golf course.  

Send me an IM and I'll get you my phone number.  I'd also be happy to show you around and explain some of the more subtle design features that wouldn't necessarily be apparent.

Here's the old invite thread from our outing a couple years ago, when the course was still in grow-in:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14911;start=0

Here's a picture I took last fall from the tee on #2:

[Jerry Kluger]

I thought #2 was a great hole, unfortunately, a photo doesn't do it justice.

[Jason Blasberg]

From what I've seen of Stonewall from Frank Pont's site the land there is just perfect for golf.  

Do FC and SW get firm and fast in the Summer and Fall?

How wet is the wet/Spring Season with seasonal precip and snow melt?

[Dan Herrmann]

Jerry -you're so right.  There is a big elevation drop from the tee and there' a huge swale just before the green that captures anything short.  

Jason - yep - they get as firm and as fast as possible.  Some summers are better than others, but that is certainly the goal.

Snow is a pain.  It's pretty hilly out here and anything on the north side of a hill takes a lot longer to thaw out.  

The drainage is pretty good at FC, although #12 (who's green is across the street from Stonewall #2 (or is it #3?)) can get wet in the hole's "flats".  Yes - we get runoff from Stonewall  

[Jason Blasberg]

Why doesn't the close proximity of these three courses by two of the modern masters get more attention?  Seems to me to be a very powerful 54 holes of modern golf.

[Jason Blasberg]

btw, is there the land and or inclination to build another 18 at FC?

[Dan Herrmann]

Nope - actually, most of the land around the course is zoned for houses.    Plus, being non-equity, we members really don't have a say.

Ironically, we need affluent water from the housing to feed our irrigation system at FC.

Personally, I agree with your read on some great golf off PA345.  In fact, there's a million dollar house up near FC 14 tee with nice views of FC, and both Stonewall courses, including that church steeple up on the newer SW course.  You can even spot far away views of SW from way up high on FC #1.

We also happily make use of their lightning sirens.  Fortunately, both clubs have a really nice relationship.

[redanman]

Responding to Jason, more or less......

Actually there are three interestingly-pedigreed courses in very close continuity there.  Stonewall (much of routing inherited from Fazio; Hanse with fairly major input into the design), French Creek (Hanse et.al.) and Stonewall Udder (Doak with I believe Eric Iverson on lead).  

Unfortunately French Creek dealt with some serious routing issues that led to a couple of holes that are not on many golfer's favorite lists (3 - a tee a green and some wetlands, 4 - forced wetland carry, two blind water hazards, 8 - just another drop shot.).  Some superior holes came out of it though with 2, 6, 7, 9, 12, 15 leading the way.


Having been blessedly lucky to play all 3 multiple times I have always preferred Udder from the moment I came off it to Old at Stonewall, but it's personal preference.  On the Udder I really like 3, 4, 8, 12, 14 and 17 with 18 being the routing-related noisy clunker and on Old I prefer 8, 11 and 18 but have little love for  4 (another drop shot) and the mostly back and forth routing from 12-16.  17, I've never decided about 17 fully.  A lot of people complain about it, but I kinda like it.

Most appealing holes of the 3 courses to me? (At least one from each course listed)

Shorter par 3 - #5 French Creek - Short, blindish, non-green that functions as green. (# 17 SWO, #6 SWU)

Longer Par 3 - #13 Udder - Butt-puckering water use at its best, better use of water than SW Old #9. (SWO #9, FC #17 because #3 really barks a bit)

Short Par 4 - #11 Udder - green at grade, lots of short grass in play or #15 French Creek - 15 ways to play it, scores from 2 to 10 (SWO #12)

Long 4 -  #2 French Creek - Just plain crazy good and stupid hard, more of a par 4.9 than par 4.5 or #12 French Creek another mind-f***er.  Nearly dead flat with short grass in play and non-green functioning as green, lots of ways to play due to meandering, splitting creek or Stonewall Old #18 - One of the finest finishing holes and views in golf. (SWU #15)

Short 5 - #3 Udder - Great use of a hill. (SWO #1 {only one!}, FC #16)
 
Long 5 - #11 Stonewall Old - Superb use of a sidehill #8 Stonewall Udder Great use of a wall and a green set down near the end of a spine of the land , #6 French Creek -UPHILL, excellent angled bunkers, raised green.

Granted these are just my opinion, but a lot of architectural gems in that little corner of PA.  

[Dan Herrmann]

Interestingly, you'd find that many of us, including Gil, agree with your assessment of #4.  He actually felt that it could have been one of the best holes on the course.  Until.

Until he went to actually do his thing and found that the area where the fairway was supposed to go was going to be used as wastewater basin for the houses.  This is the area up to the left of where the current fairway is.  

The area between the green and the bunkers about 50 yards out will eventually be scalped and made more level.  I know that Gil never intended short shots to bound to the right and into French Creek itself.   It'll be a pretty expensive update - with the need to move irrigation and the like, and will wait till after new ownership takes over.

The tee was tough because the placement was restricted by Pennsylvania law.  

The other mea culpa Gil had was on the severity of 14 green.  It's a Ross-like bowl, but the penalties for missing left or long are severe.  It's so penal that many members using > 9 iron play for the right hand side of the green or short.  Actually, the way the green is shaped, the best shot is a cut, but that's a damn gutsy shot - hitting over nasties to the green.  Fortunately, we've done a LOT of tree removal in there and it's playing much better.

#3 is a tough one as WV suggests because Gil was hampered by PA law.  This hole crosses French Creek and its wetlands.  We've cut back a lot of the trees around the tee and really opened up the feel of the hole.  I think it's quite a bit better now, but it is demoralizing to have a double so early in the round (if you enter the hazard).

On a nice note on 3, a new forward tee has been built along with a wonderful path that is routed very close to French Creek over on the right hand side.  Makes playing the hole if you're walking much quicker.

But don't get me wrong - I absolutely LOVE this golf course.  It never fails to excite, to bring joy.  Of course, it can also confound with its subtleties and optical illusion greens (like 8 and to a certain extent, 7).

Also - on 6, that BIG fairway bunker was originally going to be a homage to Hell's Half Acre.  But the the decision was made to soften things a bit.

I have some of Gil's original drawings, done as promotional material back in 2002.  The changes between the drawings and the ultimate construction are very intersting.  In fact, I've done holes 1-6 for a "My Course" that describe the differences.

Another change between concept and build - the general location of 17 green and 18 tee were swapped.  

Lastly, GAP just rerated the course - here are the new course ratings and slopes
GOLD 73.0/140
GOLD/BLUE 72.2/139
BLUE 71.2/137
BLUE/WHITE 70.1/133
WHITE 67.2/124

[wsmorrison]

Dan,

Why was the course rerated?  Were changes made?  Still waiting for the MHC write up

[wsmorrison]

Here are some photos from that enjoyable outing you put together in 2004 and starring Willie Dow:

[Dan Herrmann]

Wayne,
Actually, the course was rerated because it's routine to rerate a new course 3-4 years after it opens.  Green speeds change, things settle, conditioning obviously improves. etc..

Thanks for posting those pictures.  I'd forgotten how new the course was when we played.  The rough spots over to the right of #2 you show were actually the last part of the course to be done - about a year before that there were two large H2O retention basins that were required by PA DEP to help prevent runoff into French Creek.  They were allowed to be removed after construction ended.

MHC - gawd...  I gotta get my tail in gear!  With all the ice and snow on the course, this is the best time to do it.

[JMorgan]

Why doesn't the close proximity of these three courses by two of the modern masters get more attention?  Seems to me to be a very powerful 54 holes of modern golf.

Location.

OT bit of trivia: The real-world model for the golf course in Updike's Rabbit books, Flying Hills, is just due north of these courses (but a world's away otherwise).