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wsmorrison

Early US Architecture
« on: February 01, 2007, 07:59:56 AM »
The following are photographs from a course that no longer exists but the club is still around producing excellent golfers...one of whom posts regularly on this site.  These photos are from 1909 and the course remained in existence until 1927 when they moved nearby to the present location.  The club started in 1897 with 9 holes and expanded within 2 years to 18 holes as the popularity of the sport exploded.  In 1899 the course measured 6326 yards, truly one of, if not the longest courses in America at the time.  Oh, par was 77.  The second nine was all of 3464 yards with a par of 40 with holes being assigned half-pars.  The club bred champions from the outset and remains one of the finest players' clubs anywhere.

A not-so-natural looking bunker within the dimensions of the 14th green.  Maybe this feature, though clearly not as well executed, inspired Thomas to create his 6th at Riviera.  




A somewhat familiar look and style that was retained in American golf for years beyond this course's demise.



« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 08:10:51 AM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re:Early architecture
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2007, 08:10:04 AM »
Wayne:

Since Thomas grew pretty close to that course maybe that did inspire his 6th at Riviera years later. It would be very unlikely he wasn't aware of it.

I'm glad you posted that top photo because it shows just how rudimentary things could be back then.

I'm beginning to think the decade of 1900 to 1910 is the seminal decade in understanding the real evolution of golf architecture in America.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 08:11:05 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2007, 08:15:10 AM »
Wayne, my only other thought looking at those old rudimentary features is that they must have been really good at making custards back then.  ;)

And I hereby propose that the architecture of that era be more accurately and appropriately named not "Victorian" golf architecture or "Geometric" golf architecture or "Dark Age" golf architecture but "Custard" golf architecture, even though it probably wasn't as tasty as it looks.

wsmorrison

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2007, 08:30:41 AM »
Tom,

Clearly it is Creme Brulee architecture.  Custard?  What, are you from NY or something?

Sean,

I know what you mean.  The style evident in the second photograph is not so different from that of celebrated works we all know.  You're right, strategic placement might be better, but then again...maybe not.  I wish I had other photos to see how the bunkering was placed on this old suburban Philadelphia course.

By the way, sometime after Flynn patented what are now known as the Merion Baskets, this club used them as well for a time.

TEPaul

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2007, 08:43:38 AM »
"Tom P
I am not sure if your second post was meant to be flippant or not.  Either way, this type of bunkering is more or less the same thing that I see photos of (from very well respected clubs) all the time on this site.  The big difference is more the placement than the style of bunker.
Ciao"

Sean:

Whoa, whoa, hold on a minute here.

Flippant???

What are you talking about?

This is the very thing we need to talk about and particularly get realistic and honest about on this website.

I know exactly why Wayne posted those photos. He thinks that kind of architecture IS really rudimentary looking.

We can't help it that some of these old clubs that have architecture that looks like that are well respected or really well respected, the fact is the look of that architecture REALLY IS incredibly rudimentary looking and I think it's incumbent on any and all of us to admit it and discuss it. In other words to discuss why it was that way back then.

This does not mean at all that we have to hate it or even not like it. We merely have to be honest about what it really is and what it really does look like. It can certainly play great but what I'm talking about and I think Wayne is too is only what it looks like in the context of the evolution of golf course architecture in America, particularly some of the "schools" of architecture that immediately followed it and may've even been a reaction to it.

That some on here tend to call architecture that looks like that "natrual" looking is frankly just beyond some of us and that includes Wayne and me. We believe some on here say things like that or rationalize it simply to try not to sound critical of something that's well respected from years ago.

We're not trying to be critical in some negative sense, we're only trying to be honest in our analyses of the evolution of golf course architecture.

And the larger and even more interesting question and subject is some of this type of architecture and the look of it (Macdonald/Raynor, Banks et al) seems to be enjoying a real comeback and remarkable return to interest among some architects today.

In my opinion, it can even play great---it certainly can play quite different from the far more natural looking golf architecture but if anyone on here persists in calling the "look" of that architecture even remotely natural looking compared to much of what followed it all I can say is they are either really blind or just not wiling to be honestly critical for some reason that is probably not a real good reason---not in an analytical sense anyway.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 08:51:26 AM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2007, 09:05:40 AM »
Sean,

Personally, I do not like the style of bunkering from an aesthetic perspective.  As regards a strategic perspective, I think there were more hits than misses as far as placement, but who likes the repetitiousness of being in a perfectly flat sand bottom at the base of a steep grass-faced bank all the time?  The lack of variety of stance and contour is not at all appealing to me.  However, there are many that love the concept.  There is room in golf for a wide range of designs.

However, no matter if we like it or not, it is interesting to study and place in perspective along with the bifurcation that would take place within a few years towards a more natural looking design that was not so overtly man-made.  Even this category has two distinct subsets.  The first is using as much of the natural features in interesting ways and the second, where engineering was required for drainage, strategy and design interest, it was made to look natural.  This, to me, is a higher art form than the more engineered look.  Some architects just didn't go very far into naturalism, and avoided letting the site specific features dictate design and routing (in my mind, naturalism requires much more routing skill).  While their courses can play great and offer lots of challenge, the architectural underpinnings aren't as sophisticated in my book, especially where templates were used.

I've long been in a minority (sometimes of one) on here for feeling this way about Raynor, Banks and to a much lesser extent, Macdonald.  However, you think about it, the dynamics of change (of varying degrees) at the time is fascinating.

TEPaul

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2007, 09:37:53 AM »
Sean:

Maybe I am flippant and sarcastic on here sometimes but not about this.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2007, 10:05:30 AM »
As for the first picture:

"I'm a zit, get it?"



The zithole, obviously.

Mike

« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 10:05:48 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

wsmorrison

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2007, 10:28:04 AM »
Sean,

I have to run, but I must say I agree with you.  By natural I wasn't intending to limit the naturalism bunker appearance but also the use of natural land forms or natural looking man-made features that created interest without the use of bunkers, such as ridges, contours, slopes, turboboost areas near hazards, etc.  

Bunkers would be made in a more natural style several years after the photos I posted were taken, but they could not be completely natural in Pennsylvania farmland.  But they could resemble nature far more closely and the effect of that was a more pleasing one and advocated by Wilson, Flynn, MacKenzie, Thomas, Tillinghast, Colt, etc.  Raynor, Banks and Langford stayed clear from this movement.  That is an interesting component of architecture in that time.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2007, 10:43:00 AM »
I find this bunker visually and strategically appealing assuming the approach is from the left:



Would it not separate the skilled player from the average player and should that not occasionally be a bunker's intent?

Seems it would be strategic for the skilled player and penal for the average player, a perfectly acceptable dichotomy assuming match play.

Mike
Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2007, 12:18:01 PM »
Wayne,

I found your first photo to be rather interesting as I found a similar looking photo recently.  My photo is of a green and as you can see it is rather small, yet it shares a similar look to the feature in your photo. I am not privy to your info, so I have to ask, are they defining the feature as a bunker or you?
 
It is hard to see in your photo if the sand is level or recessed. I can see that if it was a green that it would be rather small, but as you can see in my photo that green is not too much bigger.

Thanks for posting your photos, the more I see of the early architecture the more I find myself pulled in to try and see more of it.  







Tully

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2007, 01:37:54 PM »
Glad to see Wayne mention Langord, as the second picture resembles a classic Langord/Moreau bunker, of the type you'd find all over the place at Lawsonia and other notable L/M courses.

Langord tended to build greenside bunkers like that not necessarily directly fronting the green, but flanking the green and sometimes on the backside/far side of a green. Part of his design philosophy with bunkers like that is that he would provide strategic options off the tee so that a correctly placed tee shot would have a relatively open approach to the green -- even some low, run-up opportunities -- while an approach shot from a poorly placed tee shot might require a carry over a high-faced bunker like the one pictured, or perhaps a shot away from the bunker. From that perspective, to answer Sean's criticism, the bunkers do seem to have a degree of strategic appeal. Langford was a very good golfer in his day, and you get the sense from looking at his courses that he was rather exacting -- perhaps similar to Tillie -- on the demands he wanted to place on approach shots to the green. Having been in many of those type bunkers in Lawsonia, I can say they are penal, although not excessively so.

The first bunker reminds of some of bunker Travis designed at Hollywood. Ran's profile has several pictures that closely resemble the one pictured.


wsmorrison

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2007, 02:00:24 PM »
Sean,

It is definitely referred to as a bunker in a green--at Huntingdon Valley's Noble course before they moved to the present one.  It appears that the caddy is holding the flag on the green on the other side of the raised bunker.

Kyle Harris told me that the Noble course was kept in play by another organization for several decades more.  I didn't know that.  I doubt they retained this feature though.  

That is one strange looking green.  I think we should post more photos of what some of the courses looked like before the classic era.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 02:01:50 PM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2007, 02:14:53 PM »
Wayne:

Maybe that thing was just mislabeled a bunker along the way and it is a green. My God, that stuff is so rudimentary we may not even be able to tell the difference between a green and a bunker back then.  Now I know where the phrase "Get in the bunker" came from. It's because some golfer back then thought it was a bunker before he hit the ball but then when the ball was in midair he realized it was actually the green. ;)

wsmorrison

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2007, 02:24:21 PM »
The caption under the photo reads,

"New mound on 14th green at Huntingdon Valley"  

If that was new architecture, I would hate to see the old.  I'll post some more early photos shortly.  

I hope we can lead this discussion towards the branching off between architectural styles; the Creme Brulee and the Natural.  Forget Custard, Tom.  You're usually great at creating buzz words and phrases...you swung and missed on this one.

wsmorrison

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2007, 02:28:53 PM »
Is it any wonder Tom Paul called some of the early architecture, Steeple Chase Architecture?

Philadelphia Country Club 1896


Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2007, 02:55:01 PM »
This reminds me of Shackamaxon's 9th hole with its use of a mound on a green. It was a Tillinghast course circa. 1916, so it would be some of his earlier work. He would have seen alot of the early architecture so it is interesting to see him use these two features on one of his courses. Could we consider a hole/course from this time period to show some of the transition from the "dark ages," to the "golden age?"


Here is the link to my thread on the 9th at Shackamaxon.

Shackamaxon

Tully

wsmorrison

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2007, 03:31:12 PM »
Merion's 17th green (old 3rd) from the Haverford course (1909):



Two pictures from Shinnecock Hills in 1894




« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 03:31:30 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Kyle Harris

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2007, 03:33:39 PM »
As I mentioned to Wayne, HVCC's Noble Course was bought and made public as Baederwood Country Club until the 1950s. Dan Wexler's "Lost Links" has a feature on the course and the various routing configurations.

The original routing crossed roads several times (for those familiar with the area: Valley Road and the golf course was in the valley off York Road (PA 611) along the Fairway (the golf course is the reason for the name) in Abington. Right where the Barnes and Noble bookstore is. The Noble train station overlooked the original site of the first green.

TEPaul

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2007, 03:38:35 PM »
Wayne:

Regarding those old photos that you just posted----if anyone, anyone at all, states that those features don't look almost exactly like the jumps and features of a steeplechase course I'm afraid they simply do not understand what a steeplechase course looks like. And for most on here that is entirely possible.  ;)

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2007, 08:51:32 AM »
I’ve  came across an interesting item re: early architecture and Philadelphia.

Newspaper article announced that the Old York CC was opening on September 4, 1910.   This was a  9 hole course and article listed many 'prominent' local members.  

Interestingly,  the golf course design was selected from those who entered the ‘contest’ for the layout.  

“.... a prize of $100 was offered for the best laid-out course, and experts from all the prominent clubs competed, the prize being ultimately awarded to James Laing, the Huntingdon Valley Country Club expert; and, while some slight changes have been made, the main features of Mr. Laing’s plan have been carried out in detail. ”       There was also the typical  1910 (or 2007 ?) "best" pronouncement that the “course will be numbered among the best in the eastern part of the country.”   The article clearly stated that the “only natural hazards will be used this year, but a comprehensive plan has been outlined for the next five years, which includes installation of bunkers, traps, ..”

The year 1910 was interesting in Philly as I found the March newspaper article from Philly and NY newspaper in which CBM pronounces he has the answer to GCA in America,   spotted account of  George Crump going overseas in September, this Old York CC golf course design was selected from those submitted by experts from all the prominent clubs,  and a new Merion will get started a few months later in 1911..

Tillinghast & Thomas had also designed a course by 1910 and were obviously well known locals in Philadelphia.  It seems the Philadelphia school was really coming into being about this time.

Sounds like steeplechase architecture was 'out' based on the wording of using 'natural hazards' and then placing bunkers over a period of time.



ps >    This 9 hole Old York CC was on 70 acres bounded by Old York Road,  Meetinghouse Road,  and Washington Lane.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 09:09:37 AM by john_stiles »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2007, 09:50:54 AM »
Interestingly, James Laing's course still exists, at least some derivation of it does.

In around 1915, Tillinghast came in and added nine holes and revised some of the others.

Around 1962, the club moved and land was sold off.   The course was consolidated to nine holes by a man named Robert Strange, and today is known as the Abington Club.

Incidentally, this course features one of the first known "moat" holes with an island green, the par three 6th hole, which is evidently the work of Tillinghast.

http://www.abingtonclub.com/revised/golf.asp

TEPaul

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2007, 10:12:10 AM »
John Stiles:

Thanks again for that good research work on the early Philadelphia newspapers!

It seems like Philly was really rife with the so-called "amateur" architect at that time and dedicated amateur architects at that.

In my opinion, it is beginning to seem like perhaps the most important contribution Macdonald was really offering American architecture at that time was not necessarily to copy the look of what he was doing at NGLA but simply that a golf club could go about doing it the way he had----with strictly "amateurs" or what they may've referred to back then as "sportsmen"----not architects which may've connoted professionalism at that time. Perhaps this is also precisely why the USGA became so hard-nosed through the teens about those involved in architecture taking any money for it. This created a lot of problems with some and eventually ended around 1921 with the institution in the Rules of Amateur Status of what is still referred to as the "architect rule".
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 10:14:01 AM by TEPaul »

Kyle Harris

Re:Early US Architecture
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2007, 02:01:51 PM »
Interestingly, James Laing's course still exists, at least some derivation of it does.

In around 1915, Tillinghast came in and added nine holes and revised some of the others.

Around 1962, the club moved and land was sold off.   The course was consolidated to nine holes by a man named Robert Strange, and today is known as the Abington Club.

Incidentally, this course features one of the first known "moat" holes with an island green, the par three 6th hole, which is evidently the work of Tillinghast.

http://www.abingtonclub.com/revised/golf.asp

Here's a picture of the Moat Hole in the snow:



The hole today plays as a par 3 from the hill top, but it was designed as a par 4. Tillie drew the hole for an article printed in The Course Beautiful.

The stretch of courses that were along Old York Road (PA Rt. 611 today as the Abington Club is about 4 miles south of where Huntingdon Valley's Noble Course was) are a fascinating study for this era of the "Philadelphia School."
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 02:02:12 PM by Kyle Harris »

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