Consequences of a "tournament ball"...

[Ken Moum]

On the other hand, there are anecdotal reports that bowling has seen its interest among the general public decline due to a belief that the sport has become too easy and is therefore not enough of a challenge to contain one's interest.  The belief is that advances in ball technology have lead to the game becoming easy.

I'm inclined to agree with those who say tennis and bowling have suffered more from a shift in balance between power and control to almost pure power.

I also believe that if golf doesn't restore it's balance between those skills, it will suffer the same fate as the other two sports--both of which have seen dramatic declines in participation.

K

[Ken Moum]

I think we need to meet some time.

That may be possible.

I was recently talking to Greg Lyman about coming up to your area. I think he said he knew you.

When, or if, it happens is hard to say. But it's an area I would like to visit.

Ken

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Mr. Mucci,
If you make it to MI I would enjoy the opportunity to show you some clubs used by pro's, back in the day. It would be great to have someone of your stature here confirming that much of what is said about equipment from that era is old wives tales and reserved to describing the equipment the 20+ handicapper used.

Ralph,

I must say that I was shocked to see how well a golfer played with a set of hickories in June of 2005.

And, they played with them on a demanding golf course, Sand Hills.

What was even more incredible was that it was Ran Morrissett.

He came very close to breaking 80, having gagged it on # 18.

My dad was born in 1912, so, I'd imagine that his contemporaries  enjoyed their use.

I have no doubt that the clubs are adequate, but, I'd be hard pressed to believe that 80+ years of development has produced nothing other than marginal differences in performance.

I will be coming to MI this summer.
How far are you from Grand Rapids and Traverse City ?

[RSLivingston_III]

Mr. Mucci,
If you make it to MI I would enjoy the opportunity to show you some clubs used by pro's, back in the day. It would be great to have someone of your stature here confirming that much of what is said about equipment from that era is old wives tales and reserved to describing the equipment the 20+ handicapper used.

Ralph,

I must say that I was shocked to see how well a golfer played with a set of hickories in June of 2005.

And, they played with them on a demanding golf course, Sand Hills.

What was even more incredible was that it was Ran Morrissett.

He came very close to breaking 80, having gagged it on # 18.

My dad was born in 1912, so, I'd imagine that his contemporaries  enjoyed their use.

I have no doubt that the clubs are adequate, but, I'd be hard pressed to believe that 80+ years of development has produced nothing other than marginal differences in performance.

I will be coming to MI this summer.
How far are you from Grand Rapids and Traverse City ?

Are you thinking about coming in for John Kirks meet?
I live in Grand Rapids.

[RSLivingston_III]

Pat,
I am fairly sure that Jim Kidd has the Hickory course record for Sand Hills. I haven't heard what he has shot at Friar's Head yet. I do still owe him one more club to finish out his set. It is all clubs his Grandfather sold from his shop in MN.
There will be a hickory tournament at Sand Hills this summer and it will be interesting to see what the scores will be. There will be some good players there.

[TEPaul]

Would this board feel a "tournament" or "competition" ball necessary if the USGA/R&A managed to adopt as the "conforming" ball of the future these "prototype" balls they've asked all the manufacturers to submit for testing that go 15 and 25 yards less far?

Of course there are plenty of questions about the "prototypes", the primary one being 15 and 25 yards less far than what?

My guess would be 15 and 25 yards less far than the present ODS limit.

[Ken Moum]

Would this board feel a "tournament" or "competition" ball necessary if the USGA/R&A managed to adopt as the "conforming" ball of the future these "prototype" balls they've asked all the manufacturers to submit for testing that go 15 and 25 yards less far?

Of course there are plenty of questions about the "prototypes", the primary one being 15 and 25 yards less far than what?

My guess would be 15 and 25 yards less far than the present ODS limit.

I've been operating on the assumption that the balls will be designed to assure that they are no fun to play. I can tell you that if I were making them and I didn't want to see such balls required by the ROG, I wouldn't submit anything that made such a rules change likely.

OTOH, if the ruling bodies actually did require a ball that didn't go as far, I would do everything in my power to make my new conforming balls as pleasant to play as possible.

Until proven otherwise, I will assume these balls will not play a role changing to a shorter ball.

OTOH, one or two ball makers could do the opposite and try to take a market-leading action that would position them for success if the rules do change.

It wouldn't surprise me if Volvik did something like that, as they were cheerful participants in the Ohio experiment, and in fact used that event to launch their ProsPect ball.

If that happened, it might create a completely different outcome.

Ken

[RSLivingston_III]

Was it 15 or 25 yards or percent reduced?

[Doug Siebert]

TEPaul,

I don't think it would help all that much if the ball just went 15 or 25 yards shorter but was in every other way identical to the ones we play today.  You would solve the problem of needing to lengthen some holes that don't have room to lengthen, but you wouldn't really change the game the pros play at all.  Or the amateurs, other than causing the short and medium distance hitters to probably give up more distance than they got from the Pro V1 style balls in the first place (unless they were able to game the test by only having balls hit above a certain swing speed lose distance, which may be possible to do)

The problem is that you aren't truly preserving the shot values if the drives better players hit are still the high-trajectory-not-much-roll type which spin less and reduce workability (both deliberate and accidental workability)  I firmly believe that fairway bunkers and uneven areas of the fairway have been rendered much less effective when today's ball travels a larger portion of its total distance in the air and less of its total distance on the ground.  It also makes flogging a more attractive strategy if having your ball nestle in the rough and not roll costs you only 5 yards instead of 35 yards like it used to.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Help me out here. I have read that the new balls "unlock" additional distance for the very highest swing speeds. Even some pros cannot achieve these speeds; some pros are not just getting longer in absolute terms but relative to the fields that enter tournaments.

If this is true, is that the real issue, this "unlocking," or is the problem across-the-board distance.  Also, if true, can this element of balls be eliminated? If so, the idea that pros play with a different ball than amateurs might be moot.

Thanks,
Mark

[Ken Moum]

Help me out here. I have read that the new balls "unlock" additional distance for the very highest swing speeds. Even some pros cannot achieve these speeds; some pros are not just getting longer in absolute terms but relative to the fields that enter tournaments.

If this is true, is that the real issue, this "unlocking," or is the problem across-the-board distance.  Also, if true, can this element of balls be eliminated? If so, the idea that pros play with a different ball than amateurs might be moot.

Thanks,
Mark

That assertion is false. The fact is that all golf balls become less effieicent as they approach their elastic limits. The harder you hit a golf ball, even today's version, the less ball speed you get per mile of clubhead speed.

But that doesn't explain the effect we get where the best players appera to have gained massively over the average player.

Personally, I think it's an artifact of the newer ball's straightness. That straightness allows the select few who have found the key to swing speed to reach for even more of their available speed. And THAT generates significantly more distance.

I know two young players who grew up in the ProV1 era, (They are still in college) and both of them went to OEM test centers while teenagers. One was told he had the hihgest SS they ever recorded, and the other was told his SS was 5 mph higher than Tiger''s (In a match against me 7 years ago, he flew a seven iron  225 onto a green)

They have NO fear of letting out the shaft because they aren't used to fighting to control the ball.

When these kids get on Tour there will be a new power boom.

FWIW, I believe Nicklaus had this kind of distance at his call, but the balata ball was too hard to keep in play, so he rarely used it.

Ken