What original drawings exists and where are they??

[Ian Andrew]

Tom P,

St. George's paid for everything to be professionally archived and scanned. Everything! Now you can digitally borrow items or sign out originals to look at them in person.

With all the money that many of these big clubs have in the bank, there is no excuse for this not happening everywhere.

[wsmorrison]

Ian,

I'm working for the archives of a club that is near and dear to me.  Does St. George's have a mission statement for their club archives and could I possibly speak to someone about how they run their archives?  

I know we wouldn't lend originals out but we do have digitals of all the architectural drawings and quite a large collection of articles and photographs.  We want the collection used for research purposes to interested parties.

[TEPaul]

"With all the money that many of these big clubs have in the bank, there is no excuse for this not happening everywhere."

Ian:

I think this kind of thing is about to open up like a NYC fire hydrin that some little kids have turned on. I see it happening now----Merion did it, then PV found out about that and is planning on doing it, ANGC did it, Shinnecock is beginning to plan to do it, The Creek, etc, and these are only a few we see. I think it's going to become the next big thing to do. What anyone like us needs to do is just find someone in any club who's a good candidate to inspire, inspire him, and in almost every case he takes off and runs with it like a red-ass rabbit!  

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I agree with you!  I have been working at several clubs where old photos, plans, reports,...etc "seem to have just disappeared".  I don't think it was taken on purpose (I hope).  Often it probably just gets misplaced or stored away in some far off corner of the club because no one thinks it is of any value.  By the way, I think you still have that file of Lehigh information we loaned you  

I think it is great that Hurdzan is donating all those Flynn drawings to the USGA.  I hope they look after them.  I also hope that whatever information, etc. is located there, it is more "RESEACHER FRIENDLY".  Right now the Golf House is not that at all.  Being someone who has spent countless hours there, all the restrictions make gathering information very difficult.  You can't even take digital photos of things anymore or do scans or copies.  The rare books section is even more difficult to work in.  Just something to keep in mind.  

Ian,
I tend to do the same thing as you when we come across old aerials or photos, etc.  In fact, you should see some of the things we just discovered for a new project in NY.  We plan to post much of this on the clubs website as well as hang photos, etc in the clubhouse.  

Mark

[Ian Andrew]

Mark,

Your USGA comments disturbed me, how can you do research without copies. The online archives are great, although the resolution can be trying at times.

I'm glad the RCGA is still very helpful in making sure researchers get what they are looking for and the copies they need.

[Mark_Fine]

Ian,
It is very difficult to say the least.  I guess what happened is that some people were not being careful with the old books and/or would come in and take photos of everything.  If I remember correctly, they cracked down on this about a year and a half ago.  Back when I first started going there you could make copies and scan and take photos of what you needed.  Now it is much more controlled and those things are not possible especially on the older books.  On some of the books, you can request copies and they will make them for you but only on some.  If you go there you will see what I mean.  It is not like the library in college!
Mark  

[Mike Hendren]

I would encourage anyone visiting Pinehurst to call on Audrey Moriarty at the Tufts Archives and ask her to see Ross' detailed drawing of the routing of Seminole.  It is ink over pencil on linen and in pristine condition.  It is not on display but Ms. Moriarty will be delighted to bring it to you.

One thing that sticks out is the inclusion of a "practice field" and separate "instruction field."  

There is also Ross' drawing of different styles of bunker construction hanging on the wall that shouldn't be missed.

A great place to visit.

Mike

[TEPaul]

Mark Fine:

That's precisely what this entire USGA architecture archive initiative is all about----eg making all research material that has become what is basically referred to as "static"---eg you can't access it well or make copies of it well, far more accessible in all ways through digitalization and getting as much of it as possible on the Internet.

If the initiative is carried out as well as I hope it will be it will require a pretty  substantial investment. There's no need to be redundant about it though. If other places have material it's up to us to find out where it is first. They don't exactly have to give it to the USGA---just create a situation where perhaps a good deal will be accessible via "linking" or "hyperlinking" on the USGA site or on other websites to the USGA's site.

The thing should be looked at more as an easily found or accessible avenue to all kinds of points of accessible information and material rather than just a sole and single destination.

But the idea in my mind should be and hopefully will be far more ease for everyone in finding most anything and from anywhere in the world. That's essentially what the real power of the Internet is.

There was a man on a phone hookup in one meeting who mentioned that if one does a Google Search for architecture or historic architecture, the USGA may not come up in the first ten pages, and that in the future they should want to come up on the top of the first page, or even to be looked at someday as the "Library of Congress" for golf architecture research. That got a lot of head nodding and practically a cheer.

So we'll see. Personally I'd like to see the USGA and its website stand foursquare behind the entire subject of golf course architecture and its entire history---eg the history of the playing fields of the game, in an accessible informational sense.

[Mike_Young]

Man I had some Ross originals but just gave them to Tommy Nacc....i was using them for place pats and he really wanted them.

[David Stamm]

Mark Fine:

That's precisely what this entire USGA architecture archive initiative is all about----eg making all research material that has become what is basically referred to as "static"---eg you can't access it well or make copies of it well, far more accessible in all ways through digitalization and getting as much of it as possible on the Internet.

If the initiative is carried out as well as I hope it will be it will require a pretty  substantial investment. There's no need to be redundant about it though. If other places have material it's up to us to find out where it is first. They don't exactly have to give it to the USGA---just create a situation where perhaps a good deal will be accessible via "linking" or "hyperlinking" on the USGA site or on other websites to the USGA's site.

The thing should be looked at more as an easily found or accessible avenue to all kinds of points of accessible information and material rather than just a sole and single destination.

But the idea in my mind should be and hopefully will be far more ease for everyone in finding most anything and from anywhere in the world. That's essentially what the real power of the Internet is.

There was a man on a phone hookup in one meeting who mentioned that if one does a Google Search for architecture or historic architecture, the USGA may not come up in the first ten pages, and that in the future they should want to come up on the top of the first page, or even to be looked at someday as the "Library of Congress" for golf architecture research. That got a lot of head nodding and practically a cheer.

So we'll see. Personally I'd like to see the USGA and its website stand foursquare behind the entire subject of golf course architecture and its entire history---eg the history of the playing fields of the game, in an accessible informational sense.

Tom, what can we do as fans of the subject? I would love to be able to contribute some legwork and try to find drawings from my local area. Bell's drawings were all thrown away by his family when he and his son died. Is it possible to go to some of the clubs in the area and see if they have their own copies of his drawings? I'd love to see if La Jolla CC and San  Diego CC have these drawings, but I wouldn't know who to ask. I'm actually working on Rancho Santa Fe GC as we speak.

[Kris Spence]

We are currently working on the restoration of Sedgefield CC in Greensboro NC.  Sedgefield is one of Ross' truly great courses, a very unique routing with alot of angle, a wide variety of slope variation in the fairways, just amazing use of the natural landforms in my opinion.

A 1989 Green Reconstruction project failed to recapture the original dimensions of the fill pads and the contruction was shoddy at best. Greenside bunkers were added over the years to narrow the approaches and most every strategic fairway bunker was removed.  The greens eventually lost nearly half their original size due to encroachment including all of the front and back corner locations.

When preparing the plan for the golf course, we had at our disposal photo copies of several sets of Ross' field notes, green drawings, as well as the original  routing plan for all 36 holes.  (Only one course was finished with three holes of the other course constructed but later abandoned) The GGO PGA Tour Event was played there off an on between I believe 38 and 75, there were numerous still photos as well as a mid 1930's aerial photo that showed significant discrepency between the course shown on Ross' field notes and the final version of the course that was constructed.

In an effort to get answers about the discrepencies in the bunkering,  I had several meetings with various members on the committee to see what they remembered etc and to encourage them to look for any additional photos, notes, plans they might have.  

At the end of one meeting a gentlemen ask me if I wanted to see an old set of drawings between two pieces of card board they had in a closet, he was sure they werent worth anything to me but if I wanted them I could have them. I immediately had them bring them to me and upon taking them outside into better light, they turned out to be the original blueprints that Mr Ross carried around the course when he made his final revisions.  He had written numerous notes directly on the plans in lead and red pencil adding and removing bunkers as well as recommendations concerning tees, trees etc.  Every note on the plan matched exactly what we saw on the aerial photograph from the 30's verifying what the original Ross course configuration was.

Nathan Cashwell in my office scanned each copy and we returned the originals to the club recommending that they be taken to a professional for proper preservation.

I will provide the Tufts Archives with the scanned files and I believe the club is going to preserve and frame the originals for display in the clubhouse.

[Jeff Doerr]

So we'll see. Personally I'd like to see the USGA and its website stand foursquare behind the entire subject of golf course architecture and its entire history---eg the history of the playing fields of the game, in an accessible informational sense.

This seems to be such an important project to me. Is there a parallel project happening in The Bitish Isles?  

It also occurs to me that this whole thread has a historical/theological counterpart. The church history community is seeking to get closer and closer to the orginal intent of the autographs. In so doing they can confirm the message we have today. In the church community there is a belief in the guiding of Holy Spirit throughout the process.

I hate to say it, but an organized movement by the USGA and R&A would be a "Holy Sprit" like help in the process of uncovering and preserving the genius of many architects.

[Bill_McBride]

I had an interesting experience last summer at Eugene CC in Oregon.  The course was designed by Chandler Egan and was rerouted in the '60's by Robert Trent Jones, who basically reversed Egan's routing.  The reason, according to Jones, was that all the ponds were in front of the tees and pretty much not in play, so RTJ reversed the routing so the ponds were now right in front of the greens.  This had the impact of making the course much more difficult!

In the clubhouse, our host, GCAer Ari Techner, showed us side-by-side framed drawings of the two routings, at approximately the same scale.  I have no idea whether or not they were original drawings, but they looked to be.  It was a fascinating exhibit.

Eugene CC is ranked in the top 10 of Oregon courses, so it was quite interesting to see the evolution of the course over the years.

Thanks, Ari!

[Mike_Young]

It would be interesting to see how many modern day architects would want someone to take their drawings of a project they were building today and use them for a redo in 50 years.  I don't think they would convey the final desires of the architect on most projects.  And I think the same goes for the dead guys.....but they are nice pieces of club history for framing etc.....

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
That is why you need more than just the drawings  
Mark

[John Foley]

Bill - That is about as cool a presentation as I've heard about. I also like the progression of the designs at Olympic they show.

I'd love for Forrest to chime in to see what he found in his research on his Routing the Golf Course.

It would be fantastic to see more & more of this material availabe to the rest of the world.