[Sean_Tully]

Thought I could never say that about the course, but this changes things! Photos were taken in 1924.

I played Ojai about four years ago and I walked away from that experience cursing and shaking my head. I loved the setting and the conditioning of the course, but the course I had hoped to play had been  desicrated. What a wonderful course in these photos, especially of the lost holes. What a special place that is lost to us all, save the few remaining photos that exist. Some of the SoCal guys can give more details as Ojai is out of my juristiction.

Tully

[Michael Robin]

Sean -

Great stuff! Where did you find these? I've always loved the current 18th, which I believe is your second photo, but I had never seen it without all of the thick tree growth. It looks fantastic in it's raw original form. Much like the pics you see of Pasatiempo in it's original state.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Phenominal stuff eh Sean!?!?!

The course was amazing and you were right in cursing what you walked away from. I too have done so on many occasions. This is a perfect example of an honor literally defacing a wonderful golf course over the years. Edwin Libby in spinning in his grave! (the founder of Ojai Valley Inn)

Quite obviously, the old 3rd. Carter Morrish did a really great job of destroying any hope of a perfect restoration here. It was all there. All of it. It just needed all of the trash, 2 x 4's and broke-up concrete removed from on top of it. IT WAS ALL F-ING THERE!

Instead, Carter Moorish bulldozed it all away--all of it, literally flattening it and then building the abomination that is there today.


This is the old 10th fairway, Approach shot in taken from the green. In the background is the 11th fairway with the bridge leading across the barranca to the green. To the right of it is the short par 3, 12th, and the tees for the 13th, which from the 1929 aerial photo, looks to have been a great short par 4. I've never seen this particular photo. Outstanding!


Not 100% sure, but this looks to be 11th green. If it is, it's changed a bit in the back. Looks as if there was a drop-off into a back bunker that doesn't exist now. (From the 1929 aerial photo I have.)


I think this is the original 14th green. Not 100% positive, but it sure does look like it in relation to the contours and how they would work with the strategy of the Mae West-like mound that was just front right of the green. The tee for the 15th would be directly behind it, down near a reparian creek. It too was an outstanding hole.


The old 5th which is now the 18th. Magnificent bunker complex short right which of course is now gone. Some of the outline of it is still there near the rough line. the rest of it has been shaped away.


This is an image I was hoping you would have. It's the fronting creek bed bunker of the 15th green which of course no longer exists.

It makes me utterly sick to my stomach what has happened to this once GREAT, and I say this GREAT track. It's a shadow of its former self now never to be fully realized. The tough as nails 6th is now buried under the newest portion of the resort. The Director of Golf was behind many of these changes, as well as the resort itself. IT's ALL FUCKING GONE.

This is why sometimes it best to just bury the dead ASAP, because what left of the rotting carcass just plain stinks.

Long live Ojai.

[James Bennett]

Thanks Tully

I've seen some pictures of Ojai in Geo Thomas's book.  Nice to see some more, with quite a good image/definition as well.

Is there any other info, eg scorecard, routing, aerial?

James B

[James Edwards]

Tommy,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Can you explain what they did to the old 3rd?? Ive reread but cant follow it.. thanks James

[Bill_McBride]

I rode around Ojai as it exists today a couple of summers ago, with some construction underway and the nines in the process of being reversed.  It is difficult to tell what hole is what in the current format, but they are making a huge mistake changing nines.  You need to be warmed up to handle those short but very tricky holes that were the start of the back nine.

It is a beautiful piece of property, very dramatic in spots with the barrancas and hills and giant old oaks.

The hole Tommy calls the "old third" has indeed been replaced with a hole filled with bunkers that look nothing like the rest of the course.  It is indeed a desecration.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

James,
Here is an image from Ben Dewar's Golf TI website of the current 3rd.



Compared to what was previsouly there, the new hole looks nothing like it, nor plays like it either. I have yet to talk to one person, those who study architecture and those who just play golf, that have said anything positive about the hole--it's that bad.

The original was sort of a peninsula-like hole requiring a carry over the bunkers. It was sort of a leap of faith shot with out of bounds staring you on the right, complete death staring you out on the left (But still playable) all going out ot a point.

The bunkers were well short of the green. and a well-placed shot off the back of them would get the ball to roll on to the green with little problem, or you could go for the green and try to hold it which was tough given the conditions of the day.

The currrent hole requires one play--hit it and stick it, and I just don't think it's very fun or exciting when doing so. It's simply do it or die.

[ed_getka]

Tully and Tommy,
    Thanks for sharing about Ojai. I have never been there yet, because I always hear how great it was, and what a letdown it is now. Its too bad, but unfortunately we have modern day examples, when one would think people would be more enlightened. Tully, keep sharing these gems you come up with, you are an exceptional historian, and I can easily envision you following in George Bahto's footsteps some day.

Michael,
   If you ever get a chance to meet Sean Tully and see the amazing stuff in his laptop you will be impressed to say the least.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ed,
Let's just hope he never has a hard drive failure, both mentally and mechanically!

This stuff is pretty taxing but enjoyable when doing it. Sean and I spent about two hours on the phone the other nght doing research together some 400 miles away. The truth be told, Sean is a maniac. However I credit his mojo with helping me find a bunch of stuff I had never come across before, even though I had researched it a jillion times.

I would post my aerial from 1929, but for one, it's just not that good of quality and two, I spent $130.00 of my own money for it. That's how much I wanted to understand the course.

However, it does show a lot of stuff that explains of where the holes went and how--with exception to the old #2. If anyone should figure it out, I'll send them the aerial for free! (I'll post an image of the hole later)

I have my ideas what was going on with the original #2, but it was somewhat bizarre. To get some of you started, it is currently the 15th or the 1950's to 2000 #3. I don't think there is a classic course more butchered then Ojai. It's gotta be right up there at the top of them.

 

[Joshua Pettit]

Tully,

Very coincidental timing, as I was just in Ojai Sunday evening.  I got there late so I only had an hour to walk the course and the lighting wasn’t very good but I was able to snap a few photos before my camera battery died.  I didn’t know too much about the history of the course and how it was altered over the years prior to my visit so this thread has been very interesting to me.  It was however very apparent that some of the holes I walked weren’t George C. Thomas’ original routing but nevertheless it seemed like it would be a fun track and the surrounding landscapes were amazing.  We’ll have to play there some day with Tommy but probably not until next year as I am leaving for the east coast at the end of August.

[Sean_Tully]

I think this is the original 14th green. Not 100% positive, but it sure does look like it in relation to the contours and how they would work with the strategy of the Mae West-like mound that was just front right of the green. The tee for the 15th would be directly behind it, down near a reparian creek. It too was an outstanding hole.
I am not even going to give a hole number as it just gets me more confused. How many different routings have they had out there anyway? For me this looks like the green for tee shot down into a valley. It is the hole right after the one with the tree just short of the green. Josh has it in his his last two photos, thanks Josh.


The old 5th which is now the 18th. Magnificent bunker complex short right which of course is now gone. Some of the outline of it is still there near the rough line. the rest of it has been shaped away.
color][/b]

I do not know if it is the same hole as you describe above Tommy, as it seems to be on the opposite end of the clubhouse area. To me this is the other lost hole as it is going in the direction away from the par three and it would have the green for the par five right behind it. Then the next tee would be just behind the green and going over the baranca.
Just my thoughts on the photos from what you have added.

I actually found the photos online! I am somewhat crazy about my research and try ever avenue that I can think of. These are from the California State Library, they also have some photos of the old Flintridge property before the course was built and some of the buildings. Also some pics of Aqua Caliente, notihing of the course just the buildings, bastards.

Back to Ojai- is there any routing map for the course that would show the original routing? Tommy how was the LATimes on showing routings in the paper for grand openings/big matches?



Tully

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I agree, this place is so beautiful yet the course is so gone to very average.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Josh, I would look forward to it! Plus we can go over to Soule Park and sample Gil's work over there.


This is the old 14th/current 5th hole. The bunker in the color photo I believe is a Morrish creation. Just in front of it was a Mae West-type mound from Thomas' original design that of course ruthlessly was ripped-out in the best of interests of idiocracy. Below is the 5th fairway taken from the old 16th/current 7th green. The tee shot for the 5th plays almost directly over this green.

This is the old 16th/current 7th green taken from two different angles. Originally in Thomas's design, the hole played right agasint the creek bed. It was moved further back up towards the back drop of the hill. The originally location was much more challenging, where this change--probably Bell Sr,'s just after the war took away a lot of strength. My guess is that it too was a victim of flooding during the great storms of 1937 which claimed a great many courses in all of SoCal.

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy, what did Gil Hanse do at Soule Park?  That was a pretty decent back and forth course on a pretty, rolling site last time I played it in 1962.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Panhandle Bill,
After the stormy winter of 2004/2005, Soule Park was literally demoilished by torrential rains and flooding from the river. Trees had also overtaken the course quite a bit. They all just grew-up.

Gil & Jim with the great Larry Rogers handling the irrigation issues, created some new greens of quite some character. It gave the course some new strategies and a more Bell Sr.-style of bunkering. the course is a shadow of its former self. It's not of a Rustic Canyon caliber, but its a lot of fun. I think the improvements are better then what was there before. Hopefully David M. can add some photos, as mine are from construction.

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks, Tommy, I will have to give it a go next time in Southern California.  That is just such a beautiful setting over there in Ojai with the foothills in the background all the time.  And Soule Park probably needed the deforestation, right?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill, they got rid of a LOT of trees. More then I would have ever thought they would have allowed. It's looks a million times better. I'll try to post some images later.

Get ready for Kikuyu though. It's everywhere. In fact, I'll go there with you if you want. Just let me know when your in town.

[Sébastien Dhaussy]

With the article on Ojai in Links magazine (see link below), I found it interesting to bump this thread  

http://tinyurl.com/278sdm

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sébastien,
Ojai for me is one of the great tragedies in golf in Southern California. Great tragedy in that you can go still view it's rotting carcass knowing that at one time existed a pretty sporty links worthy of discussion as one of the great ones in California.

After reading the article, more of a travel loge of where to go, and I know because I too wrote a similar one in 1998, (the Inn really loves these types of pieces proving more just how little they really know of the golf course other then invoking the name of George Thomas, yet really never following any of his or founder, Edward Libby's thoughts of the resort and golf course. It's really ashame too, because the place is pretty special.

And not just any golf hole. In the early 1920s, George C. Thomas was commissioned to build a course in the shadow of the mountains. Thomas, known for his masterful designs at Riviera, Bel-Air and Los Angeles Country Club, was handed a 200-acre parcel that “gave opportunity to select natural holes rather than to build artificial ones, and to provide great diversity in the shots provided.”

What's funny most about this comment is that it's practically lifted from Golf Architecture in America, and the fact that Thomas designed Ojai in 1921 and 1922, whereas Rivera, Bel Air and Los Angeles CC were designed from 1926 on. (omitting Thomas' oversee of the original Herbert Fowler design at LACC)

[Joe Hancock]

Michael,
   If you ever get a chance to meet Sean Tully and see the amazing stuff in his laptop you will be impressed to say the least.

Ed's straight. He's referring to a computer.  

Joe

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