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Doug Ralston

Zoysia
« on: January 16, 2007, 07:41:15 PM »
Because zoysia fairways seem fairly rare, and yet seem to play wonderfully to me, I would like to here from those professionals of course development as you the whys and wherefors. Is this a good investment [Bruce Bottoms at Dale Hollow Lake tells me it is very cheap to maintain compared to bent or bermuda]? What kind of soil works, and is that common?

Doug

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2007, 06:25:29 AM »
Doug,
  I would say that Zoysia isn't cheap at all to maintain. It's very suseptable to disease, doesn't not hold up to a great deal of cart traffic and is very slow to recover from divots. There is really now way to encourage it to grow much faster because zoysia likes low amount of nitrogen. It's actually similar to bentgrass because of it's inability to resist disease, color and it's ability to get thatchy. Bermudagrass seems so simple because you can beat it up, scalp it, drive all over it and it's will recover. We've never sprayed fairways here, which is a HUGE time and money saver. Zoysia also doesn't do well overseeded because of it's unagressive nature, it has a hard time outgrowing the ryegrass.
  The only area that I know that have zoysiagrass fairways are Atlanta and to the north. (A little in Texas) Atlanta Athletic Club, Peachtree, East Lake and The Honors Course to name a few.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2007, 09:18:12 AM »
I would say Zoysia is the main grass here in St. Louis. I know nothing about it other then the ball sits up real nice on it. it does get spongy when it is long kind of line Kikyu.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 09:18:28 AM by Brian Noser »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2007, 09:48:16 AM »
Brian,
  That slipped my mind. Any course in the transition zone has a good chance of having zoysia.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Doug Ralston

Re:Zoysia
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2007, 02:04:51 PM »
Anthony;

You are telling me exactly the opposite of what I was told at Dale Hollow. Also, in bad weather, Dale Hollow insists you stay IN the fairways. "You could practically drive a tank down the zoysia and leave no discernable scar"; I believe has a been a quote there. Also, I was told it required almost no maintainence. It was only the initial cost that was pricey.

Been going down there [4 hrs each way, 4 hrs to play, 1 hr to eat, perfect daytrip!] about 3x per year. It plays awesome, and you almost cannot have a bad lie.

I find your comments more than a bit conflicting with previous rumor/experience.  :-\

Who else can give some insight?

Doug

Brian Noser

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Re:Zoysia
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2007, 02:09:50 PM »
Doug,

Tapawingo the course I worked at for 5 years also had a policy of only driving carts in the fairway. to keep off the bluegrass rough. From what I understood the Grass is very tough but I really do not know. I do however enjoy playing off of it but I guess it is what I grew up on though.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2007, 02:31:12 PM »
  From some reading on the Zoysia genus, there are a few species before we get into cultivars but all of them seem to be long sleepers and none would be a perennial in USDA zones 7 and lower.  Since this turf is propogated by sprigs, zoiks, that would be an improbable choice in my neighborhood (now pleasantly snowed under).  

  I am curious though about divots . . . do players carry around buckets of zoysia plugs to replace the tossed sod?

 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 02:39:01 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Larry_Keltto

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Re:Zoysia
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2007, 02:55:41 PM »
<<Any course in the transition zone has a good chance of having zoysia.>>

You'll find a lot of zoysia at Kansas City courses.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2007, 02:57:47 PM »
Its a good grass,  Anthony summarizes the potential problems, although he makes it sound a little harsher than it is.  I am about to do the same, even though I think its a fine grass in the right applications.

Zoysia is the best grass for tranisition zone fairways, bar none, and has been pushed further south by high end clubs, primarily because, as one rube puts it, its like teeing it up from the fairway.  Southern superintendents say its not ideal for them, despite its play qualities.  In the deep south, it will have similar quantities of maintenance problems as bermuda, but different issues.  A combination of traffic and shade hurt it in winter, even while it avoids the scalped down lies of Bermuda.  Maintenance wise, I think Bermuda is probably closer to bulletproof.  

Its important to realize that there are many Zoysia choices now. I am not an expert, but the common Zoysia that was once advertised as the bullet proof "miracle grass" in Midwestern papers has been hybridized into many forms.  Many varieites are relatively problem free.  However, once researchers started breeding for finer texture for use in fairways, collars and even greens, for example, those types started showing less disease, shade and drought resistance as a tradeoff, losing some of the qualities that made Zoysia attractive in the first place.

Zoysia suppliers seem to be being particularly vicious in their sales pitch when it concerns other companies varieties and products.  Each claims theirs is the purest form.  In fact, its hard to keep weeds like U3 bermuda out of a large Zoysia sod farm, so constant monitoring of sod delivery from almost any supplier is a requirement for close to genetic purity.

BTW, it grows so slow, you need to sod it. Some companies are pushing zoysia plugs in a netting material as a better, less expensive alternative, but I am not convinced. It just takes too long to establish.

Zoysia doesn't tolerate wet feet, and should not be placed unless your fw areas have surface pitch of at least 4.5% Its thatchy nature makes it soak up water, and in flat areas, it will become soggy.  Some clubs are using sand capping of the fw when resodding to it, but I don't think of it as particularly a sand loving grass either.

So, its a choice, and rather than being clear cut, depending on location, its one of many, with some advantages and tradeoffs, depending on what your course deems most important.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 03:19:45 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2007, 04:48:18 PM »
     Meyer zoysia fairways are commonplace in Memphis.Thatch is a problem and they tend to stay spongy.We're going to try some frequent,light top-dressing.We also fight bermuda encroachment from the rough.At my place,divots take 7-10 days to heal in the summer.We just fill them with sand.
     A couple of places in town have used Diamond for their approaches and surrounds with some success.Some people like the way it plays,it can be mowed much tighter, but don't like the different colors of green on the course.
     Interestingly,Alotian uses the same flavor of zoysia for fairway and rough.I can't remember which.
     

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2007, 05:10:45 PM »
Zoysia is good grass-70% of our tees are zoysia, but we've had our problems. It's just not a bulletproof grass-It's not wear tolerent, doesn't heal fast and is VERY slow to establish. We don't overseed them and we mow them once every 2 weeks. We find ourself having to topdress and veritcut it several extra times in the summer and because of the bermudagrass encroachment and it's agressiveness, we have to spray turflan/fusilate, after edgiing the tees, to try to kill the bermudagrass, but not harm the zoysia.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 05:14:03 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2007, 07:49:46 PM »
Anthony,

I've been up at The Honors since 1991 and I know it has a much older cultivar than what Peachtree and AAC put down.  The new diamond zoysia is fantastic--very,very fine leaf blade that seems nothing like the coarser older varities.  In fact, we have used it for our new tee boxes this year.

The only "complaint" I ever had about The Honors Course was that the zoysia was like velcro--the ball would just hit and stick.  Except for very dry periods there was little roll but worse, there was almost no chance to ever run up shots to a green.

This new zoysia may solve that problem and I am excited to play it.  William was the super at my course years ago before ending up at PGC and when it warms up I promise to give a report!  (Actually, William used something other than diamond for his fairways--still newer and finer textured I'm sure).  

Michael Christensen

Re:Zoysia
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2007, 08:37:27 PM »
very good point Chris, The Farm in Dalton, GA has the same problem as Honors.....no roll.  Good luck trying to bump and run shots short of the green......they just pop up and go nowhere

Having played Peachtree a few times since they re-opened, it is totally opposite.  The ground game is in full effect with the new zoysia they laid down.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2007, 06:21:36 AM »
Chris,
  The Honors Course fairways actually used to be bermudagrass, but they were changed out shorted after construction-sodded. The current zoysia that they have is Meyer, I believe. They still do have to spray alot of expensive fungicides and spray the fairways to stop the encroachment of the bermudagrass roughs. But, Mr. David Stone, golf course superintendent, is the only superintendent that course has had and his playing conditions are incredible. Plus he does alot of his own testing. He knows his grass as good as anyone. I hope to get up and see Mr Shirley in Febuary.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 06:22:48 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2007, 07:35:38 AM »
Anthony,

Let me know when you come up--I'll buy you lunch!

David is a phenomenal super and a great person and it's pretty cool that he's been there since the beginning--1983ish.

ANyway, right after I joined in 91, we hosted the US AM in August.  The summer was brutal and alot of the rough around the greens (maybe some type of cold season grass--bluegrass?) completely burned out and looked terrible.  That winter all the grass around the greens was dug up and sodded with more zoysia around the edge of the greens and bermuda around the zoysia.  

Since the zoysia "rough" was kept pretty low, chipping around the greens has always been pretty easy--great lies.  If you get into the bermuda, though, that's a different story.

Have you ever been to see David's test areas?  Worth a trip.

Anyway, hope you can say hello when visiting.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2007, 08:01:06 AM »
I am not an expert but I can give you one bad and one good experience with Zoysia - TPC Avenel and Woodmont CC in Maryland.  As I understand it, the problem at Avenel was that the zoysia was dormant sometimes right up to a couple of weeks before the tournament plus the course had some drainage issues and the grass could not absorb all of the water.  On the other hand, Woodmont CC is a short distance away and has 36 holes, 18 with zoysia fairways and 18 with bent, and it has worked quite well with both courses in excellent condition.  

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2007, 11:21:35 PM »
Chris--

You are correct about David Stone, he is the master of Zoysia grass. Whenever we have a question about our large, zoysia range tee, he is the man that we call.  He's great to talk to and is more than happy to answer questions.  The other thing is that he really cares about The Honors.

I would echo the thoughts of the others about zoysia and that it is slow to heal.  It is also suceptible to infiltration of other grasses, namely poa annua and it's hard to get rid of the poa once is in.  

The Alotian Club is zoysia tee to green I believe.  It will be interesting see Peachtree once the zoysia has matured, I'm sure it will play alot longer, on top of all of those new tees pushing it to 7400+ yards.

Doug_Petersan

Re:Zoysia
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2007, 01:21:15 PM »
We have had Zoysia fairways, roughs and tees in Austin, TX for 6 years.  Our fairways were orginally sprigged with Cavalier Zoysia ( Matrella).  Our Tees are Diamond Zoysia (sodded).  We are currently establishing a 6 hole short course with Diamond Zoysia greens.  Our Zoysia program has been very successful.  Our members love the way it plays, very firm and fast.  Through the growing season we mow fairways 2 times per week at .450".  We also use about 65% of the average amount of water of Bermuda courses in the area.  As far as pesticides we make one application of a light rate of Heritage in the fall on fairways for Zoysia patch.  With the savings of labor,fuel, water and fertilizer this is an overall savings compared with the typical bermudagrass maintenance.  More important the playability Winter, Spring, Summer and Fall cannot be equaled by a bermuda surface.  We also require carts to stay in the fairways year around and have seen no long term damage from this.  We don't regret anything about our decision to use Zoysia.  

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2007, 02:17:42 PM »
Doug,

Great to see you here.  Three questions:

How many rounds do you get down there and what % use carts?

How is your water quality?

What about the roll issue?

Thanks in advance.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Doug_Petersan

Re:Zoysia
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2007, 02:44:59 PM »
Jeff- We get about 12,000 rounds per year.  Our water quality isn't bad, high ph, high bicarbonates but low in sodium.  I did see some Zoysia growing in a salt tank years ago where the salt was exuding through the leaf and doing fairly well.   I think it is reasonably salt tolerant.  We don't have a problem with ball roll, in fact we raised the height of the fairways a little, from .375 to .450 to slow the roll a little.  With native roughs we were having balls roll through the fairways and stopping in the native areas.  We don't apply much Nitrogen fertilizer to fairways so thatch/mat isn't much of a problem.  Our soils are native Texas clay/caliche soils of the Texas hill country.  We haven't had a problem with divot healing.  We topdress divots in the fairways and on the tees and they heal fairly quickly.  Zoysia heals divots from underneath and not lateraly on the surface like bermuda.  Even our par 3 diamond tees do very well.--Doug

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Zoysia
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2007, 03:56:05 PM »
Doug,

Thanks.  At Colbert Hills up in KS, our Meyers fairways really do limit roll, and the "word" is that Zoysia in DFW rolls like crazy in winter, but is slower in summer. I'll have to check out Diamond and others in different seasons.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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